Masculinity, so fragile

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Warren
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 30 Oct 2019, 12:36

Hugh Akston wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 12:31
tr0g wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 12:18
Hugh Akston wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 11:48
Alls I know is that Sheryl Sandberg, Ronda Rousey, or any given member of the US Women's National Soccer Team is way more competitive, aggressive, and violent than a wiener like me will ever be.
Yes, but you recognize that because they are competitive, aggressive and violent in stereotypically male ways. Females are no less prone to competition, aggression, and violence but it manifests differently primarily (as I understand it) due to culture. The culture of aggression and competition among teenage girls has received a lot of study due to bullying and suicide and it's a different thing than it is for boys. It's fucking brutal, and as Y members of the gene pool we'll never see it because a lot takes place in female only settings.
Agree. The fact that attribute x manifests differently in different age and cultural groups is one more wrinkle that makes it problematic to assign any attribute primarily to either gender.
I think you guys are vastly undervaluing the effect of hormones.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by tr0g » 30 Oct 2019, 13:28

Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 12:36
Hugh Akston wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 12:31
tr0g wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 12:18
Hugh Akston wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 11:48
Alls I know is that Sheryl Sandberg, Ronda Rousey, or any given member of the US Women's National Soccer Team is way more competitive, aggressive, and violent than a wiener like me will ever be.
Yes, but you recognize that because they are competitive, aggressive and violent in stereotypically male ways. Females are no less prone to competition, aggression, and violence but it manifests differently primarily (as I understand it) due to culture. The culture of aggression and competition among teenage girls has received a lot of study due to bullying and suicide and it's a different thing than it is for boys. It's fucking brutal, and as Y members of the gene pool we'll never see it because a lot takes place in female only settings.
Agree. The fact that attribute x manifests differently in different age and cultural groups is one more wrinkle that makes it problematic to assign any attribute primarily to either gender.
I think you guys are vastly undervaluing the effect of hormones.
Well, I have way more direct experience with males in the 16-25 demographic and they are functionally insane & somewhat retarded. Risk? What's that you speak of, old man? We know not this concept. *splat*

I assume there is a similar effect going on with 16-25 year old women, but because I lack the experience with them (har, har) I don't know how it manifests. I mean, they seem to be less prone to the kind of risk-taking behavior that ends in pain and blood than the males do, but I dunno.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 30 Oct 2019, 13:33

Plato correctly observed that the guardian classes (read: the military) need to be "high spirited but not extremely intelligent" or words to that effect. That's why you always want 18 year olds in your army. When the sergeant says "Take that hill!" they'll do it, or at least try. By the time they're all 25 the reaction is more likely to be "I don't know, Sarge, looks dangerous to me." Male hormones plus an inadequate appreciation of one's mortality are the stuff all armies have always been built upon.

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 30 Oct 2019, 13:49

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:33
Plato correctly observed that the guardian classes (read: the military) need to be "high spirited but not extremely intelligent" or words to that effect. That's why you always want 18 year olds in your army. When the sergeant says "Take that hill!" they'll do it, or at least try. By the time they're all 25 the reaction is more likely to be "I don't know, Sarge, looks dangerous to me." Male hormones plus an inadequate appreciation of one's mortality are the stuff all armies have always been built upon.
I've read serious papers to the effect that the establishment deliberately maintains a permanent underclass that becomes inured to danger so as to have a surplus population to draw on in the event that an exterior threat suddenly emerges.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 30 Oct 2019, 14:02

Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:49
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:33
Plato correctly observed that the guardian classes (read: the military) need to be "high spirited but not extremely intelligent" or words to that effect. That's why you always want 18 year olds in your army. When the sergeant says "Take that hill!" they'll do it, or at least try. By the time they're all 25 the reaction is more likely to be "I don't know, Sarge, looks dangerous to me." Male hormones plus an inadequate appreciation of one's mortality are the stuff all armies have always been built upon.
I've read serious papers to the effect that the establishment deliberately maintains a permanent underclass that becomes inured to danger so as to have a surplus population to draw on in the event that an exterior threat suddenly emerges.
Yeah, I was at that meeting and the rest of the establishment agreed that poor, stupid people will continue to procreate, so all we really need to do is let nature take its course.

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 30 Oct 2019, 14:27

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:02
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:49
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:33
Plato correctly observed that the guardian classes (read: the military) need to be "high spirited but not extremely intelligent" or words to that effect. That's why you always want 18 year olds in your army. When the sergeant says "Take that hill!" they'll do it, or at least try. By the time they're all 25 the reaction is more likely to be "I don't know, Sarge, looks dangerous to me." Male hormones plus an inadequate appreciation of one's mortality are the stuff all armies have always been built upon.
I've read serious papers to the effect that the establishment deliberately maintains a permanent underclass that becomes inured to danger so as to have a surplus population to draw on in the event that an exterior threat suddenly emerges.
Yeah, I was at that meeting and the rest of the establishment agreed that poor, stupid people will continue to procreate, so all we really need to do is let nature take its course.
Ah okay good. But you guys are still ginning up exterior threats for when they grow large enough to become an interior threat right?
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 30 Oct 2019, 14:40

Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:27
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:02
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:49
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:33
Plato correctly observed that the guardian classes (read: the military) need to be "high spirited but not extremely intelligent" or words to that effect. That's why you always want 18 year olds in your army. When the sergeant says "Take that hill!" they'll do it, or at least try. By the time they're all 25 the reaction is more likely to be "I don't know, Sarge, looks dangerous to me." Male hormones plus an inadequate appreciation of one's mortality are the stuff all armies have always been built upon.
I've read serious papers to the effect that the establishment deliberately maintains a permanent underclass that becomes inured to danger so as to have a surplus population to draw on in the event that an exterior threat suddenly emerges.
Yeah, I was at that meeting and the rest of the establishment agreed that poor, stupid people will continue to procreate, so all we really need to do is let nature take its course.
Ah okay good. But you guys are still ginning up exterior threats for when they grow large enough to become an interior threat right?
Yeah, that's pretty much a nature taking its course thing, too. For example, if we lose too many guarding our borders from immigrants, we'll just take in lots of immigrants and let them guard the border. It's kind of a perpetual motion deal.

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 30 Oct 2019, 14:46

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:40
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:27
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:02
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:49
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:33
Plato correctly observed that the guardian classes (read: the military) need to be "high spirited but not extremely intelligent" or words to that effect. That's why you always want 18 year olds in your army. When the sergeant says "Take that hill!" they'll do it, or at least try. By the time they're all 25 the reaction is more likely to be "I don't know, Sarge, looks dangerous to me." Male hormones plus an inadequate appreciation of one's mortality are the stuff all armies have always been built upon.
I've read serious papers to the effect that the establishment deliberately maintains a permanent underclass that becomes inured to danger so as to have a surplus population to draw on in the event that an exterior threat suddenly emerges.
Yeah, I was at that meeting and the rest of the establishment agreed that poor, stupid people will continue to procreate, so all we really need to do is let nature take its course.
Ah okay good. But you guys are still ginning up exterior threats for when they grow large enough to become an interior threat right?
Yeah, that's pretty much a nature taking its course thing, too. For example, if we lose too many guarding our borders from immigrants, we'll just take in lots of immigrants and let them guard the border. It's kind of a perpetual motion deal.
I mean for when they start clogging up thoroughfares and shutting down factories, demanding stuff like a standard of living and such. How do we handle that?
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Hugh Akston » 30 Oct 2019, 14:49

Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:46
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:40
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:27
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:02
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:49
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:33
Plato correctly observed that the guardian classes (read: the military) need to be "high spirited but not extremely intelligent" or words to that effect. That's why you always want 18 year olds in your army. When the sergeant says "Take that hill!" they'll do it, or at least try. By the time they're all 25 the reaction is more likely to be "I don't know, Sarge, looks dangerous to me." Male hormones plus an inadequate appreciation of one's mortality are the stuff all armies have always been built upon.
I've read serious papers to the effect that the establishment deliberately maintains a permanent underclass that becomes inured to danger so as to have a surplus population to draw on in the event that an exterior threat suddenly emerges.
Yeah, I was at that meeting and the rest of the establishment agreed that poor, stupid people will continue to procreate, so all we really need to do is let nature take its course.
Ah okay good. But you guys are still ginning up exterior threats for when they grow large enough to become an interior threat right?
Yeah, that's pretty much a nature taking its course thing, too. For example, if we lose too many guarding our borders from immigrants, we'll just take in lots of immigrants and let them guard the border. It's kind of a perpetual motion deal.
I mean for when they start clogging up thoroughfares and shutting down factories, demanding stuff like a standard of living and such. How do we handle that?
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 30 Oct 2019, 18:05

Hugh Akston wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:49
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:46
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:40
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:27
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 14:02
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 13:49


I've read serious papers to the effect that the establishment deliberately maintains a permanent underclass that becomes inured to danger so as to have a surplus population to draw on in the event that an exterior threat suddenly emerges.
Yeah, I was at that meeting and the rest of the establishment agreed that poor, stupid people will continue to procreate, so all we really need to do is let nature take its course.
Ah okay good. But you guys are still ginning up exterior threats for when they grow large enough to become an interior threat right?
Yeah, that's pretty much a nature taking its course thing, too. For example, if we lose too many guarding our borders from immigrants, we'll just take in lots of immigrants and let them guard the border. It's kind of a perpetual motion deal.
I mean for when they start clogging up thoroughfares and shutting down factories, demanding stuff like a standard of living and such. How do we handle that?
Oxycontin is a helluva drug
Check. It's comforting to know civilization is in good hands.
Now about that fiat currency...
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Mo » 30 Oct 2019, 18:18

Warren wrote:
Hugh Akston wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 12:31
tr0g wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 12:18
Hugh Akston wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 11:48
Alls I know is that Sheryl Sandberg, Ronda Rousey, or any given member of the US Women's National Soccer Team is way more competitive, aggressive, and violent than a wiener like me will ever be.
Yes, but you recognize that because they are competitive, aggressive and violent in stereotypically male ways. Females are no less prone to competition, aggression, and violence but it manifests differently primarily (as I understand it) due to culture. The culture of aggression and competition among teenage girls has received a lot of study due to bullying and suicide and it's a different thing than it is for boys. It's fucking brutal, and as Y members of the gene pool we'll never see it because a lot takes place in female only settings.
Agree. The fact that attribute x manifests differently in different age and cultural groups is one more wrinkle that makes it problematic to assign any attribute primarily to either gender.
I think you guys are vastly undervaluing the effect of hormones.
What he is saying is that female competitiveness and aggression looks completely different in how it is manifested to male competitiveness. So if you’re looking for the same signals you’ll completely miss it. Think Varsity Blues vs Mean Girls.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 30 Oct 2019, 18:46

Far enough down that road and I’d be forced to say “male” expressions of competitiveness are then things to be preserved as distinct from the other flavor. Asserting directly in the face of competition or threat matters. I think in a way distinct from asserting through back channels.

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Andrew » 30 Oct 2019, 23:11

There's absolutely no difference between the sexes until it's time to get an antique cupboard up three flights of stairs.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Aresen » 30 Oct 2019, 23:26

Andrew wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:11
There's absolutely no difference between the sexes until it's time to get an antique cupboard up three flights of stairs.
I find the phone listings are best for that.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 30 Oct 2019, 23:55

Aresen wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:26
Andrew wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:11
There's absolutely no difference between the sexes until it's time to get an antique cupboard up three flights of stairs.
I find the phone listings are best for that.
And how often to a couple of hardworking gals show up when you call?
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Hugh Akston » 31 Oct 2019, 01:52

Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:55
Aresen wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:26
Andrew wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:11
There's absolutely no difference between the sexes until it's time to get an antique cupboard up three flights of stairs.
I find the phone listings are best for that.
And how often to a couple of hardworking gals show up when you call?
That gives me an idea for a short film. But it involves three women in non-OSHA-approved workwear.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by lunchstealer » 31 Oct 2019, 02:10

Hugh Akston wrote:
31 Oct 2019, 01:52
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:55
Aresen wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:26
Andrew wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:11
There's absolutely no difference between the sexes until it's time to get an antique cupboard up three flights of stairs.
I find the phone listings are best for that.
And how often to a couple of hardworking gals show up when you call?
That gives me an idea for a short film. But it involves three women in non-OSHA-approved workwear.
But the dude is wearing at least one piece of PPE.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Andrew » 31 Oct 2019, 07:33

Hugh Akston wrote:
31 Oct 2019, 01:52
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:55
Aresen wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:26
Andrew wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:11
There's absolutely no difference between the sexes until it's time to get an antique cupboard up three flights of stairs.
I find the phone listings are best for that.
And how often to a couple of hardworking gals show up when you call?
That gives me an idea for a short film. But it involves three women in non-OSHA-approved workwear.
They fix the cable?
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Mo » 31 Oct 2019, 08:27

JasonL wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 18:46
Far enough down that road and I’d be forced to say “male” expressions of competitiveness are then things to be preserved as distinct from the other flavor. Asserting directly in the face of competition or threat matters. I think in a way distinct from asserting through back channels.
It feels more like a cultural difference in expression. Similar to how a Southerner saying, "Bless your heart," and a guido saying, "Eey, go fuck yourself," are saying the same thing.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 31 Oct 2019, 10:39

Mo wrote:
31 Oct 2019, 08:27
JasonL wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 18:46
Far enough down that road and I’d be forced to say “male” expressions of competitiveness are then things to be preserved as distinct from the other flavor. Asserting directly in the face of competition or threat matters. I think in a way distinct from asserting through back channels.
It feels more like a cultural difference in expression. Similar to how a Southerner saying, "Bless your heart," and a guido saying, "Eey, go fuck yourself," are saying the same thing.
But that's just it. They come from the same place, but they're not at all the same expression.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by dead_elvis » 31 Oct 2019, 11:09

Hugh Akston wrote:
31 Oct 2019, 01:52
Warren wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:55
Aresen wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:26
Andrew wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 23:11
There's absolutely no difference between the sexes until it's time to get an antique cupboard up three flights of stairs.
I find the phone listings are best for that.
And how often to a couple of hardworking gals show up when you call?
That gives me an idea for a short film. But it involves three women in non-OSHA-approved workwear.
I think Benny Benassi already made that film.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 13 Nov 2019, 17:39

Short story: "The Feminist"

I thought it was pretty good until the picnic; the rest felt weaker and cliche to me.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Hugh Akston » 13 Nov 2019, 17:47

nicole wrote:
13 Nov 2019, 17:39
Short story: "The Feminist"

I thought it was pretty good until the picnic; the rest felt weaker and cliche to me.
Agree. The early parts about not knowing whether you're a creep kind of hit home.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 13 Nov 2019, 20:01

Ouch. I skimmed over a couple of parts, but that was a good read. Though sometimes hard to do without wincing.

Though I suspect that, despite the title, the guys who might benefit the most from reading it probably never will.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 13 Nov 2019, 20:13

nicole wrote:
13 Nov 2019, 17:39
Short story: "The Feminist"

I thought it was pretty good until the picnic; the rest felt weaker and cliche to me.
By "pretty good" did you mean "moronic and pathetic"? The picnic was at least human if not good.
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