Masculinity, so fragile

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lunchstealer
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by lunchstealer » 29 May 2019, 19:59

Jennifer wrote:
29 May 2019, 16:53
Speaking of super-masculine men who hate homosexuality and are ABSOLUTELY NOT CLOSETED GAYS THEMSELVES but sure do spend a lot of time thinking about gay men and what they might do together BUT ONLY SO THEY KNOW WHAT TO HATE .... Christopher "Crying Nazi" Cantwell, ranting about Pete Buttigieg (whom Cantwell makes a point of calling "Booty Judge"), argues that if America MUST consider voting for a gay man (like, if his only opponents were women or non-white people), it is vitally important to know if said gay man is a top or a bottom because:
A methhead whose oft-stated opposition to homosexuality is ABSOLUTELY NOT compensating for anything wrote: I mean, if we’re going to have a fag president, I’d honestly feel a lot better about it if he was a top.

Now, for those of you who don’t have libertarian degenerate friends, I should probably explain what I’m talking about here. Like, gay dudes are not egalitarians, fundamentally. They got top and bottom, big spoon little spoon, pitcher catcher. You follow? Sure some of them are switch hitters, or versatile or whatever, but generally speaking there are people who make deposits and people who receive them. I’m not endorsing this shit, I’m just telling you how it works.

With that in mind, you gotta choose between the two as President, I think you’ll agree that a fudge packer is better than a pillow biter. I mean, sure he’s got no investment in the future beyond the horizon of his own existence, but I just feel like he’d be a lot better at protecting America’s interests if he was the type of guy to grab another dude by the hair and test his gag reflexes, than if he was the type to pull his panties to one side and bend over the arm of the couch, whimpering with anticipation.

You might think I’m splitting hairs here, but this is deadly serious. Who would the Chinese be more likely to declare war against? The guy in the facial abuse video who was standing there at the end, spitting on the recipient’s face and saying “Thanks you stupid whore!” or the guy who was laying the floor afterwards, not sure where the snot ends and the mascara begins? It would certainly be a lot more comforting to hear about how President Booty Judge was doing in the polls, than to hear about how the poles were doing in President Booty Judge. Don’t you think?
Broken link here -- NOT safe for work.

https://christophercantwell .com/2019/04/19/radical-agenda-s05e028-booty-judge/
I guess what's confusing me is he's saying Booty Judge as if that were a bad thing.
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Jennifer
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 30 May 2019, 02:12

lunchstealer wrote:
29 May 2019, 19:59
I guess what's confusing me is he's saying Booty Judge as if that were a bad thing.
You wouldn't be confused if Da Jooz hadn't brainwashed you. (Cantwell is among those who take for granted that society's growing LGBT acceptance is part of the Jewish plot to destroy the white race somehow.)
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Mo
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Mo » 30 May 2019, 06:49

This is relevant again.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Hugh Akston » 02 Jun 2019, 22:59

Long read about Incels getting cosmetic surgery to Chad it up.
The sight of certain women began to bother him. When a woman he hired turned out to be beautiful, he fumed online: “An 8/10 girl works for me since today. I’m going to dominate the hell out of her. Trust me, I’m going to kill her confidence.” Women with babies ignited anger, too. “Every time I pass by a pram, it fills me with disgust to know that she has ruined her body and chose to reproduce with another guy,” he wrote. Other users responded with gifs: angry WWE faces, a cackling Nic Cage. “Seeing women taking care of their sons is the only situation in which I don’t hate them,” agreed one user named Biebercel.
Mmmmmmmmmaybe your bone structure isn't the problem.
Eppley’s not sure exactly why a patient would want testicles of dinosaur-egg size. But that’s true of many of his procedures, which he tends to design in response to patients’ requests. If his practice had a slogan, it would be “We don’t care why you want it,’’ he tells me. “And I suspect patients seek me out because they know I won’t ask them. I don’t see it as my job to cast a judgment.”
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 03 Jun 2019, 14:58

We can talk all day about the awfulness and influence of this or that group but nobody, NOBODY is more pathetic than incels. Maybe in the history of the earth. They are the Jerry Rice of pathetic.

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 03 Jun 2019, 15:42

Those pictures where the guys photoshopped themselves to look more "Chadly" -- eh, I actually thought the "before" pictures looked better, for the most part.

Despite what these losers claim, though: no, a man does NOT need to rate at least nine on a ten-point attractiveness scale to attract a woman, and I wish (among other things) that these twits would quit Freudian-projecting their own shallowness onto the entire female half of the human race. Ugly faces aren't the problem here; it's ugly psyches that are keeping women away in droves.

Though living situations such as this one certainly aren't helping, either:
The first time Truth4lie saw Eppley was during a video consultation one summer afternoon in 2016. He was living in an apartment his parents owned. His bedroom was what he calls “typical incel,” i.e., “trillions of fruit flies multiplying, cigarettes and ash on the floor, dirty clothes all over the place, not a glimmer of light.” He took his laptop to the garden outside.
Even in my sloppiest of sloppy-housekeeping days, I never let my living space look like that. I was sloppy, yes, but I was not FILTHY.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Eric the .5b » 03 Jun 2019, 16:14

Jennifer wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 15:42
Even in my sloppiest of sloppy-housekeeping days, I never let my living space look like that. I was sloppy, yes, but I was not FILTHY.
Yeah, that's the sort of thing that makes me think depression and/or other serious stuff is going on. When someone's found a scapegoat for their low self-worth and other emotional issues, they aren't going to see their problems as internal. Or, perhaps, they come up with a scapegoat to avoid seeing those problems as internal. Could carry by person; some people look for scapegoats, other people latch on to those offered.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 03 Jun 2019, 16:26

Eric the .5b wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 16:14
Jennifer wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 15:42
Even in my sloppiest of sloppy-housekeeping days, I never let my living space look like that. I was sloppy, yes, but I was not FILTHY.
Yeah, that's the sort of thing that makes me think depression and/or other serious stuff is going on. When someone's found a scapegoat for their low self-worth and other emotional issues, they aren't going to see their problems as internal. Or, perhaps, they come up with a scapegoat to avoid seeing those problems as internal. Could carry by person; some people look for scapegoats, other people latch on to those offered.
Oh, granted, there's definitely some sort of mental illness going on there; too many beliefs that don't pass even the most cursory inspection of reality. (Every part of the country I've ever lived in, when I look at heterosexual couples out in public, there are PLENTY of them -- indeed, I'd say the overwhelming majority -- where the guy looked merely average if not downright homely, rather than a modern sex god.)

And I'm certain whatever illness drives men to these loser forums in the first place, the forums only make it worse by reinforcing some seriously fucked-up ideas. That said, such ideas are common all throughout the "manosphere," not just in the incel corners of it. Cantwell, IIRC during Vice's "where are they now" followup to the Nazi rally, made some apologetic coment about how his apartment is a mess because he doesn't have a woman to keep it neat; I also recall a video Weev made before YouTube finally deplatformed him -- he was in a Russian-language shopping mall buying clothes, which infuriated him because he wouldn't HAVE to buy new clothes if women weren't such cunts something something we're supposed to make the clothes for him. I'm sure the whiny shit in The Cut story would have a similar excuse if someone asked him about the flith in which he lives: it's not HIS fault for refusing to do the most basic fundamental cleaning tasks; it's the fault of all the women who refuse to clean up his messes for him.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Shem » 03 Jun 2019, 16:30

JasonL wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 14:58
We can talk all day about the awfulness and influence of this or that group but nobody, NOBODY is more pathetic than incels. Maybe in the history of the earth. They are the Jerry Rice of pathetic.
I keep waiting for the authoritarian left and authoritarian right to have their Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra moment, and incels or billionaires are, I think, the most likely candidates to play Shaka and bring them together.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Highway » 03 Jun 2019, 16:34

It's a lot easier to blame someone or something else for your failings, instead of using self-reflection or acknowledging the false nature of decisions you've made. People will go to great lengths to justify their previous conclusions.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jasper » 03 Jun 2019, 16:36

Question: Are young women who starve themselves, obsess over make-up videos, and get a lot of plastic surgery also pathetic losers? Victims of the patriarchy? Mentally ill?

I'm happy to concede that these male incel types are, at a minimum, misogynistic assholes that view women simply as objects existing only for their benefit.

But don't females that also have that shallow belief that looks are everything just as misogynistic? That they are worthless unless beautiful? That the highest goal is to be adored by legions?

The part of the article where one of the plastic surgeons said something like if a person has a couple hundred selfies on their phone its a warning sign of potential body dysphoria was interesting.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 03 Jun 2019, 16:44

Jasper wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 16:36
Question: Are young women who starve themselves, obsess over make-up videos, and get a lot of plastic surgery also pathetic losers? Victims of the patriarchy? Mentally ill?

I'm happy to concede that these male incel types are, at a minimum, misogynistic assholes that view women simply as objects existing only for their benefit.

But don't females that also have that shallow belief that looks are everything just as misogynistic? That they are worthless unless beautiful? That the highest goal is to be adored by legions?

The part of the article where one of the plastic surgeons said something like if a person has a couple hundred selfies on their phone its a warning sign of potential body dysphoria was interesting.
I'd say that any woman who insists that her lifelong inability to attract a man she deems worthy can ONLY be due to her less-than-ideal looks because men are ALL hateful shallow bastards who refuse to even consider dating someone less than an 8/10 and why won't those fucking assholes clean my shitty house for me and whenever I see a good-looking man I make a point of doing all I can to destroy that shithead's sense of self-worth etc. etc. etc. would benefit by some intense therapy, yes. (Though the men of the world can at least take comfort in the knowledge that statistically, such psychotic women are unlikely to be strong enough to do physical harm to the men they hate.)
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 03 Jun 2019, 16:45

Highway wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 16:34
It's a lot easier to blame someone or something else for your failings, instead of using self-reflection or acknowledging the false nature of decisions you've made. People will go to great lengths to justify their previous conclusions.
Which if course is one of the nastier ironies of human nature: kicking a scapegoat might make you feel better in the short-term, but in the long run won't do a damned thing to fix whatever is making you unhappy in the first place.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Shem » 03 Jun 2019, 16:46

Jasper wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 16:36
Question: Are young women who starve themselves, obsess over make-up videos, and get a lot of plastic surgery also pathetic losers? Victims of the patriarchy? Mentally ill?

I'm happy to concede that these male incel types are, at a minimum, misogynistic assholes that view women simply as objects existing only for their benefit.

But don't females that also have that shallow belief that looks are everything just as misogynistic? That they are worthless unless beautiful? That the highest goal is to be adored by legions?
Two sides of the same condition, yes. Incels come in for more disgust because there are incel mass shooters, and other incels cheer on/make apologies for said shooters. Meanwhile, anorexichick ultimately only ruins her own life.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Highway » 03 Jun 2019, 17:19

Jasper wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 16:36
Question: Are young women who starve themselves, obsess over make-up videos, and get a lot of plastic surgery also pathetic losers? Victims of the patriarchy? Mentally ill?

I'm happy to concede that these male incel types are, at a minimum, misogynistic assholes that view women simply as objects existing only for their benefit.

But don't females that also have that shallow belief that looks are everything just as misogynistic? That they are worthless unless beautiful? That the highest goal is to be adored by legions?

The part of the article where one of the plastic surgeons said something like if a person has a couple hundred selfies on their phone its a warning sign of potential body dysphoria was interesting.
As far as I know, it's not so much that these guys are neurotically unhappy with their looks, or think that they are somehow failures. That's not what makes them "incels" as the term is currently used. The dividing line is the meaning of 'involuntary' that they've adopted, in that there's a vile concoction of conspiracy that's somehow stolen from them what they deserve, and therefore they can push all the blame off onto an amorphous other for their largely self-caused and self-sustaining problems. And sadly, the places they turn to for "help" are just self-satisfying echo chambers of other people who are also finding it easy and convenient to blame others for their problems.

And it's undeniable that if these communities stayed out of sight of the mainstream, kept to themselves, and maybe ended up helping each other do better, or even just being a place to commiserate, there would not be anywhere near the vitriol directed at them. There would be a lot more sympathy toward their (likely) mental health issues. The problem is that this community makes itself known, not through outreach or awareness, but through preposterous demands and shooting sprees. It's not "is there some way we could help them?" It's "Look what you made us do!"
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 03 Jun 2019, 17:30

I daresay another big difference between these mentally ill incel-men versus mentally ill women such as the anorexia sufferers Jasper mentioned is, society is FAR more likely to tell men, rather than women, "If you are unhappy it must be someone else's fault!"

After a mass shooting a couple of months ago, I remember this:


Jennifer wrote:The murderer is 28 years old. If I seriously believed unmarried, childfree men of 28 are likely to become mass murderers, I'd say locking up such men would make more sense than giving them spouses and kids of their very own to mistreat.
Julie Borowski wrote:Young men who lack purpose can easily get caught up in internet radicalization. Our society delaying marriage and parenthood is partly to blame.
By way of comparison: Every once in awhile you'll see a horrifying news story about some sick woman with SUCH an advanced case of baby rabies, she'll murder a nine-months-pregnant woman and cut out her baby. And when these stories come to light I never see ANYBODY -- let alone quote-unquote "respected pundits" -- who will say things like "Well, gee, if these poor murdering women are so upset by their non-maternal status, perhaps we as a society should help them conceive, or make it easier for them to adopt."
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Eric the .5b » 03 Jun 2019, 19:31

Jennifer wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 16:26
And I'm certain whatever illness drives men to these loser forums in the first place, the forums only make it worse by reinforcing some seriously fucked-up ideas. That said, such ideas are common all throughout the "manosphere," not just in the incel corners of it. Cantwell, IIRC during Vice's "where are they now" followup to the Nazi rally, made some apologetic coment about how his apartment is a mess because he doesn't have a woman to keep it neat
That idea is still out there in a lot of mainstream culture. I've apologized to a female friend for the mess (which, to be sure, was in the "random entirely sanitary objects left laying around" degree of mess) while she was visiting my house, and she waved it off with "You're a bachelor, Eric." (And Weev always sounded next to incel, anyway.)

But I'm not denying that they're shits who are part of a broader ideology. I'm just saying they're mentally ill shits, or (perhaps), some of them became shits as a way of dealing (badly) with their mental illnesses or other problems.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Eric the .5b » 03 Jun 2019, 19:46

The general contempt toward incels is because they simultaneously

1) turn their problems outward and express open, blatant contempt and hatred towards women that's hard to find in such undiluted form outside of those Saudi Arabian morality police who chased girls back into a burning building
2) whine that women won't fuck them

This makes them 1) vile and 2) pathetic.

Meanwhile, even the most horrible groups of pro-ana women ultimately direct all the self-destructive hatred at themselves. Self-hating, self-harming people don't get the same sort of opprobrium as other-hating (and occasionally other-harming) people.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 03 Jun 2019, 21:01

Eric the .5b wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 19:31
Jennifer wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 16:26
And I'm certain whatever illness drives men to these loser forums in the first place, the forums only make it worse by reinforcing some seriously fucked-up ideas. That said, such ideas are common all throughout the "manosphere," not just in the incel corners of it. Cantwell, IIRC during Vice's "where are they now" followup to the Nazi rally, made some apologetic coment about how his apartment is a mess because he doesn't have a woman to keep it neat
That idea is still out there in a lot of mainstream culture. I've apologized to a female friend for the mess (which, to be sure, was in the "random entirely sanitary objects left laying around" degree of mess) while she was visiting my house, and she waved it off with "You're a bachelor, Eric."
I maintain that's not quite the same thing, though -- your friend's joking suggestion "Hey, as a man of course you can't be expected to maintain a decently clean household" is entirely different from "As a man, you're entitled to have a woman clean up for you," let alone "If your place is a mess, some unnamed woman is to blame."
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 03 Jun 2019, 23:53

Agree the unique awfulness is the externalization paired with the entitlement. She makes me feel bad because ... she exists and is pretty. I’ll show her. WTF dude.

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jasper » 04 Jun 2019, 09:28

OK, yes. Makes sense; the 'other-ing' component of the incels' dysfunction makes them worse.

Like, murderers vs. suicides. In some cases, literally.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by lunchstealer » 04 Jun 2019, 16:12

Jasper wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 09:28
OK, yes. Makes sense; the 'other-ing' component of the incels' dysfunction makes them worse.

Like, murderers vs. suicides. In some cases, literally.
This is something I've been pondering WRT mass public shootings.

They're hugely self-destructive acts, often ending with suicide-by-cop or straight suicide. Even when they don't, there's pretty much an expectation that you'll pretty much never see the outside of a prison.

I kind of feel like they're often* a suicide alternative or a way of forcing the issue of self-destruction without taking on the burden of suicide.

So I feel that part of the solution to public mass shootings is to change our approach to suicide. Right now we try to avoid suicides at almost all costs. Suicide - even the possibility of suicide - is an outlet for hopelessness, despair, and anxiety. Knowing you have a way out if necessary makes it easier to cope with problems. Acknowledging this stuff often helps diffuse the crisis, so acknowledging suicidal ideation often ends or strongly mitigates that suicidal ideation. But right now, people tend to hear that you're thinking of suicide and freak right the fuck out, to the point of calling the cops who might shoot the potential suicide victim in order prevent the suicide victim from committing suicide.

People currently denounce suicide as the worst outcome and call people who commit suicide 'selfish' for reasons that are mostly foreign to me. Catholicism, of course, sees it as a mortal sin. All of this serves to make suffering people see suicide as not an option, which keeps them feeling trapped and frustrated and ultimately leads them to see homicide as not worse.

I'd prefer a different heirarchy. Getting treatment should still be top priority, but if treatment just does not work to alleviate suffering, and especially if you're starting to feel violently resentful to people around you, suicide is a better way to alleviate suffering than homicide. I feel like we should destigmatize suicide somewhat so that there's not a 'well why not go out in a blaze of anger if everything's fucked anyway' feeling that makes suicidal people more willing to incorporate a mass shooting or killing their domestic partner or family or coworkers into their final burn-it-all-to-the-ground blaze-of-glory exit.

*Not always the case - James Holmes for example was pretty much just a combination of psychopath and possible schizophrenic (which I think is a pretty rare combo, even among mass-shooters) and had been ideating homicide for years and built a weirdly psychotic** view of attaining value by killing multiple people.

**a term which should not be confused with psychopathy, the former meaning 'disconnected from reality' while the latter means incapable of empathy and with reduced capacity for impulse control.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Hugh Akston » 04 Jun 2019, 16:22

Yes. Suicide solutions should be available OTC. Companies can work on making them painless and foolproof, which is the big barrier to the popular suicide alternatives currently available at your local hardware emporium.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Eric the .5b » 04 Jun 2019, 16:59

Even if we classified every mass shooting as a suicide-gone-wrong, the fraction of suicides that were mass shootings would be incredibly small. Mass shooters also don't tend to be people who've accepted much or any mental health treatment in the first place.

Somehow increasing the social acceptability of suicide would probably result in enough of an increase in suicides to utterly swamp mass shooting deaths. Admittedly, this would be largely invisible to the public aside from the stigmatization of the suicidal as the potentially mass-homicidal, so possibly a win as public policy goes. (And if we think cops aggressively over-respond to suicide attempts now, holy shit...)

Meanwhile, I strongly doubt that many, if any, mass shooters would buy into the social shift. Considering how many shooters bring far more weapons and ammo than they ever manage to use, considering how they pick soft targets like schools, universities, stores, etc. instead of places like police stations where they'd more quickly be shot down, I think it's clear that the mass homicides aren't a means toward suicide, they're an end in themselves.
Last edited by Eric the .5b on 04 Jun 2019, 17:04, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Eric the .5b » 04 Jun 2019, 17:01

Besides, men have long had a deniable suicide method: the single-car accident.

Mind, that does suggest complicated, unanticipated consequences for self-driving cars.
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