Masculinity, so fragile

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Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 19 Feb 2018, 22:07

Yeah but you're an antinatalist so who isn't a monster?

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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 20 Feb 2018, 00:03

Well most people who have kids don't also go around saying they know life is terrible and people are monsters
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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JasonL
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Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 20 Feb 2018, 08:11

I would observe that if the view “life is happiness” is the view of a 3 year old, “life is suffering” is the the view of a 13 year old emo kid. Life contains both and obviously so - why the binary, bro?

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Mo
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Mo » 20 Feb 2018, 10:05

Also, life is misery makes a lot more sense when a paper cut can kill you and the child mortality rate is 30%+. Misery now compared to misery a century ago is a joke. Calling relationship problems or life being a bit difficult "misery" shows a complete lack of proportion.
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Kolohe
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Kolohe » 20 Feb 2018, 10:42

Mo, are you trying to sell us something? The man in black warned us about you.
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thoreau
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by thoreau » 20 Feb 2018, 10:53

We should count the fingers on his right hand.
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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 20 Feb 2018, 11:00

It can both be true that naive optimism is a common view that needs a corrective and that the person telling you the real deal is life is misery is trying to sell you a remedy that is fairly dramatic (because all is misery so remedy must be proportionately Heavy).

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 20 Feb 2018, 12:06

His thing on logos and the sense in which genesis is true is pretty awful. He seems oblivious to the baggage he’s bringing to the analysis to selectively force fit stories into universal truths. He’s finding universals because he’s imposing a worldview on those stores that makes literary references to his axioms stand out. You are choosing stories that work for your system (and ignoring other interpretations/ entire stories that don’t fit), you are not discovering truth from stories.

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Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 20 Feb 2018, 12:26

I find it refreshing that someone looks at problems that people express themselves, and then looks for accessible frames of reference to present solutions in a digestible format. I don't think he is forcing specific universal truths at all, rather, I think he is pointing out ideas that can form a foundation for one known good configuration. It's not an attempt at a grand unified theory, it's advice about one set of behaviors and one set of tools to handle them.

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Shem
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Shem » 20 Feb 2018, 12:37

Dangerman wrote:
20 Feb 2018, 12:26
I find it refreshing that someone looks at problems that people express themselves, and then looks for accessible frames of reference to present solutions in a digestible format.
Round these parts we call that therapy.
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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 20 Feb 2018, 12:47

Dangerman wrote:I find it refreshing that someone looks at problems that people express themselves, and then looks for accessible frames of reference to present solutions in a digestible format. I don't think he is forcing specific universal truths at all, rather, I think he is pointing out ideas that can form a foundation for one known good configuration. It's not an attempt at a grand unified theory, it's advice about one set of behaviors and one set of tools to handle them.
He keeps saying”universally and metaphysically true”. I’ve not heard a single qualifier on any claim.

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 20 Feb 2018, 12:49

What passes for exegesis is often later discovered to be eisegesis.

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 20 Feb 2018, 12:59

Overall he has a set of concerns I share - I do think people are babies about gratification and the expectation of an other to solve their suffering. I do think there is a toxicity to the conversations of the left and that the current state of discouraging critical thinking by suppressing speech is bad at all levels.

I don’t know that you remedy those issues by adopting an archetype view with 10,000% confidence. It’s just another religion which itself tends to suppress critical thinking.

I’d much prefer a few rules of thumb and exploration of the limits of such without all the baggage and truth telling. The presentation style and language is that of sales not of truth seeking.

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Sandy » 20 Feb 2018, 13:34

Turns out, we're not really lobsters after all:

https://curi.us/files/Jordan-Peterson's ... Temple.pdf

inb4 "So you're saying lobsters are socially constructed?"
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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 20 Feb 2018, 14:23

There's also things like this:
Jordan Peterson: I think it's brilliant. I think you can see that in the way people look at each other. And I mean that literally. When you are talking with someone, or even talking to a group, you watch, you watch the eyes, and the face, of the individual and the individuals who compose the group. And you look at what they are broadcasting at you. And what you want is, interest. You want their eyes to be open. And their pupils to be slightly dilated. And you want their face to be configured so that they are taking in the information that the interaction with you constitutes, and you want them--what do you say--broadcasting a certain amount of hopeful, positive emotion at you. And that's all--all of that is broadcasting that you are acting in a lovely manner in Adam Smith's, um, in sense of the term. And people are always telling each other exactly how to do that. You know, you want people to laugh at your jokes, because that means you are actually funny. And you want people to listen when you speak, because that means you have something to say. And you want people to be happy when you enter a room, because that means they are glad that you are there. And, people are broadcasting their--they are broadcasting your departure from the ideal at you all the time.

Russ Roberts: Constantly.

Jordan Peterson: Yes. Constantly. And if you pay attention to that, then you can, you can figure out how it is that you should be. And you could get better at being that way. And, there's no loss in that. Well, the one loss is that you have to take the responsibility for it. And you have to let go of everything about you that's interfering with that. So, there are sacrifices to be made. But, there's nothing but ultimate gain, I would say, in every sense of the word.
No loss except for yourself, all so you can fool yourself into thinking you have a connection with other people. I mean he just seems to be extremely anti-individualist. Which is like...yeah, no. It's gross and pathetic.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 20 Feb 2018, 14:29

Jordan Peterson wrote:You know, you want people to laugh at your jokes, because that means you are actually funny. And you want people to listen when you speak, because that means you have something to say.
I mean that's just like...do you see the kinds of things the average person thinks is funny or wants to listen to? Do you share those values?

The scenario he describes is much more like, after you leave the person's presence you want to kill yourself because you debased yourself just to please someone.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 20 Feb 2018, 14:45

I think the Nicolean view of identity is a bit wack. In the zone between blowing in the breeze of public opinion like POTUS and atomic identity "real self" that can only be constant or betrayed, is a place where feedback from idea exposure, events, and yea social interactions shift the view of self over time. I'm a pretty much different guy philosophically than I was in college. There's nothing in the Smithian model that says you have to or should laugh at awful racist jokes to make other people happy. There is feedback in that interaction and the idea is you should consider the nature of the feedback you are soliciting and providing. You should be aspirational on both ends.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Eric the .5b » 20 Feb 2018, 15:57

I wouldn't go so far as Jason, but that's enough contrasting extremity to make me risk turning into Cathy Young.

I just do my thing and get happier when people seem to appreciate it, less so when they don't.

(At the risk of triggering reactions, though, I will acknowledge that I say this as a guy, so when I am expected to conform to social standards, less seems expected out of me than for a woman.)
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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 20 Feb 2018, 16:10

I'm not trying to say that the self is immutable, just that the individual is in permanent conflict with society, and I side with the individual because I will only ever experience my own consciousness.

Most other people want you to be someone else most of the time, and I see the idea of "connection" as erasure of the reality of the other, so the desire for it is a weakness to be minimized (or, instead, a desire to dominate, also to be minimized).
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 20 Feb 2018, 16:22

War is a bad metaphor from where I'm sitting. Some expectations of others are reasonable and things to which you might want to aspire. Some are unreasonable or completely shtty. It is not a surrender to hold yourself to a standard of evaluating these as they are presented. Rote rejection seems just as thoughtless as rote acceptance. You should seek connection in ways and conditions which bring about things you aspire toward in yourself.

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Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 20 Feb 2018, 19:10

Sandy wrote:
20 Feb 2018, 13:34
Turns out, we're not really lobsters after all:

https://curi.us/files/Jordan-Peterson's ... Temple.pdf

inb4 "So you're saying lobsters are socially constructed?"
Serotonin can't melt steel beams!

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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 20 Mar 2018, 07:53

The defender of free speech:



(The column was good but not as good as it could have been.)
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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dhex
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by dhex » 20 Mar 2018, 08:09

that piece is rather overwrought (while critiquing ideas that are themselves largely overwrought) but the glare of the spotlight is only gonna get brighter.

then again, his audience doesn't give a shit.

(also i like this idea that evola is bannon's spirit animal. i can't imagine how or why, mind you, but unlike 99% of america i've actually read evola.
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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 20 Mar 2018, 08:14

Yeah I originally saw it billed as “finally someone is just debunking Jung” and I was like ehhhhh kinda but also not.

The spotlight is getting brighter and while the average critique is still terrible there are starting to be decent ones as well.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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dhex
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by dhex » 20 Mar 2018, 08:20

i feel like modern mentalhealthcare gets broken out into two camps when people get their thinkpiece up in there: either it's jungian-ish-esque gotta get back to being your authentic true self and also some yoga and juice fasts probably or fuck everything just eat pills forever.

i don't think this corresponds to real life very well generally speaking but clearly the didactic wins in terms of mindshare.

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"I do wear my New Balance tennis shoes when I'm wearing cargo shorts, though, because truth in advertising." - lunch

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