Masculinity, so fragile

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 23780
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 16 Feb 2018, 17:50

Painboy wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 17:18
nicole wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 16:01
You only have to read Middlemarch to be exposed to it.
I've never even heard of that and I'm a college graduate and do a fair amount of reading on top of that. There's a lot of stuff out there.
Is it Jane Austin? *googles* Nope,George Eliot. Either way, chick lit.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
Fin Fang Foom
Posts: 9484
Joined: 05 May 2010, 22:39

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 16 Feb 2018, 17:53

:roll:
". . . even the federalist folk are probably a bit wary, and they're essentially cosplaying the preacher from footloose." - dhex

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22053
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 16 Feb 2018, 18:02

Huh, so with the "archetypes" bit added to my search terms, I was able to find a transcript of Peterson's SB fondness, via "The Art of Manliness" (which is a very good and interesting blog much of the time, BTW, not an MRA blog despite the name AND the Peterson interview.)

https://www.artofmanliness.com/2017/08/ ... hing-life/

So, yeah, there's some talk of masculine and feminine concepts, and archetypes in general, etc., an dthen this:
If you look at the movie Sleeping Beauty, for example, the feminine is unconscious in that movie. That’s Sleeping Beauty. She’s unconscious because she couldn’t tolerate the trauma of puberty and sexual development essentially, and the reason for that is because her parents over-protected her.

If you remember, at the beginning of Sleeping Beauty, the king and queen, who’d been waiting a long time for their daughter, decide not to invite Maleficent to the christening, and Maleficent is the evil queen. She’s the negative element of nature in the world, and if you don’t allow the negative element of life in the world into your child’s environment, then you over-protect them and make them weak. Then, when they grow up and face the inevitable confrontations of adolescence and adulthood, they deeply desire to remain unconscious or to become unconscious again. That can manifest itself in suicidal ideation, for example.

Sleeping Beauty falls unconscious when blood emerges when she’s pricked, and it’s just after she falls in love naively with the prince and then that collapses and she can’t tolerate the catastrophe of existence, so she falls unconscious. Something has to rescue her, and it’s the hero. It’s the prince. Now you can read that as an external prince because to some degree in a woman’s life the adult feminine in her is awakened by the man that she chooses.

You can read it as a love story, but you can also read it as a story of individual development because what the woman is going to use to call herself out of unconsciousness is her own masculine propensity to develop a consciousness and to move forthrightly out into the world. These archetypal stories can generally be read at multiple levels of analysis simultaneously. They apply across multiple domains.
I was an English major, so I've written or read my share of term papers like this. As an explanation of archetypes or Jungian mass bullshit, it's probably brilliant and worthy of a grade of "a." (As is Shem's suggestion SB symbolized civilization raping raw nature into submission, provided he can stretch it out for hundreds of words.) But if THAT particular interpretation of SB is what made him gripe about Frozen for destroying this oh-so-useful "wisdom" of the story.... what the fucking fuck? Archetypes and tropes are meant as literary tools, not ironclad rules for how to live.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 8691
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 16 Feb 2018, 18:33

Exactly.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22053
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 16 Feb 2018, 19:24

I'm imagining Peterson getting all gripey and butthurt now because, Disney put out a movie about some little girls who are poor but eventually they save their pennies and, via prudent investing and etc., end up quite prosperous. (There's a subplot involving an adorable anthropomorphic talking woodlands creature that'll make a really cute stuffed animal to sell in toy stores, too.)

And the movie becomes a marketing juggernaut, every third trick-or-treater this Halloween is dressed like the main character [every second t-o-t is the stuffed animal], and the movie's annoying earwormy songs are EVERYWHERE and constantly sung by America's female under-six population, especially that one mega-hit song about compound interest: "Let it grow, let it grooooow"] ... yes, you can definitely debate whether this movie is "art" or "a cynical marketing vehicle to sell plush dolls and a zillion other branded Disney toys" or "why not both?", you can even do a Marxist criticism about how the movie is wretched capitalist propaganda by suggesting one can "work" one's way out of poverty (and the thing about literary criticism is, even though I'm a diehard Capitalist as opposed to Communist, I can still agree with such a piece of Marxist criticism and award it an "A" provided it's supported with sufficient examples from the text -- a vital lesson of English Lit 101 is "There's no 'right' or 'wrong' interpretation of a story; there's 'interpretations well-supported by examples' and 'interpretations poorly supported'" ... and meanwhile Jordan Peterson gives a pompous videotaped lecture criticizing this movie as wretched feminist propaganda because it teaches little girls they can make their own money rather than marry it, in defiance of the time-honored archetypal wisdom of "Cinderella."

Which is stupid enough on its own, but gets even worse when you realize Peterson's original pro-Cinderella arguments were all about the archetypes of biological vs. stepmothers because maternal mortality rates used to be much higher so the trope of the 'abused stepchild' is universally blah blah blah--not a goddamn thing about what Cinderella or Investorina or any other girl or woman is "supposed to" or "not supposed to" do.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 17838
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 16 Feb 2018, 19:51

I'm just going to go ahead and admit that the first time I read Jennifer's latest comment, I read "Disney put out a movie about some little girls who are poor but eventually they save their penises ...."

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22053
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 16 Feb 2018, 21:58

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 19:51
I'm just going to go ahead and admit that the first time I read Jennifer's latest comment, I read "Disney put out a movie about some little girls who are poor but eventually they save their penises ...."
Obviously I never would've written such a thing -- when lady Disney characters achieve happiness or fulfillment via penises, Jordan Peterson is fine with that.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 6988
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Shem » 16 Feb 2018, 22:18

So, uh... who's going to tell him that the version of the story he's going off of was largely invented by the same people who did Frozen? They can also be the ones to note that nobody ever got an A by watching the movie instead of reading the book.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
Sandy
Posts: 9984
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:03
Location: In the hearts of little children, clogging their arteries.

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Sandy » 17 Feb 2018, 02:11

He's basically Ted talks for normie values.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 8691
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 17 Feb 2018, 06:47

Aren’t actual TED talks for normie values? I want to say he’s YouTube talks for normie values but that’s just unboxing videos and kidsploitation.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

User avatar
Jadagul
Posts: 6623
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:51

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jadagul » 17 Feb 2018, 17:22

I think Sandy meant more-or-less red-state traditional normie values. (As opposed to standard bourgeoisie urban liberal values).

User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 2760
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 07:56
Location: Newyorkachusetts

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jasper » 17 Feb 2018, 22:37

He’s that uber ich you just can’t scratch; under your skin so deep, the only way to soothe yourself is to reframe reality so that your righteous contempt is right there on your sleeve, next to your heart, for all to see.
"i'd like to move toward not combusting except on special occasions like arbor day." - dhex

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 8691
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 19 Feb 2018, 09:19

The Jordan Peterson EconTalk episode is now out, so he'll be a bit more accessible to the non-YouTube-friendly among us.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

Dangerman
Posts: 6099
Joined: 07 May 2010, 12:26

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 19 Feb 2018, 12:06

What is the Venn diagram of people who listen to EconTalk who don't have access to Peterson's podcast/lectures except by YouTube? His audio is on all the usual apps/services.

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 17838
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 19 Feb 2018, 12:33

For a guy I'd never heard of six months ago, Peterson has become as inescapable and irritating as Gangnam Style.

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 8691
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 19 Feb 2018, 12:36

Dangerman wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:06
What is the Venn diagram of people who listen to EconTalk who don't have access to Peterson's podcast/lectures except by YouTube? His audio is on all the usual apps/services.
I didn’t even know he had a podcast, I only ever see people point to YouTube.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22108
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 19 Feb 2018, 12:49

Dangerman wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:06
What is the Venn diagram of people who listen to EconTalk who don't have access to Peterson's podcast/lectures except by YouTube? His audio is on all the usual apps/services.
I mean probably me. I never go to anyone's youtube channel because they are to a first order estimate 100% garbage. Get off my lawn. But, more to the point here, econtalk is a format I like and would listen to anyway without having to talk myself into diving into someone who to this point doesn't seem like the kind of thing I'd want to hear a lot of.

Dangerman
Posts: 6099
Joined: 07 May 2010, 12:26

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 19 Feb 2018, 13:18

JasonL wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:49
Dangerman wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 12:06
What is the Venn diagram of people who listen to EconTalk who don't have access to Peterson's podcast/lectures except by YouTube? His audio is on all the usual apps/services.
...more to the point here, econtalk is a format I like and would listen to anyway without having to talk myself into diving into someone who to this point doesn't seem like the kind of thing I'd want to hear a lot of.
Yeah upon more thought that's where people are going to find value.

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 8691
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 19 Feb 2018, 15:13

Yeah
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22108
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 19 Feb 2018, 15:25

About :30 in so far. I don’t like the way he presents “one way to think about a thing is X” as “x is a fact”. It is a disease of social psych types, religious types and self help types and he’s at that nexus. I don’t disagree with a set of general propositions starting with people generally act like 2 year olds in their behavior toward gratification and there’s probably a better way to see things.

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 6988
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Shem » 19 Feb 2018, 18:20

When I was 12 my father took me to church and made me swear an oath to destroy all podcasts, so unless there's a transcript, I abstain.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22108
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 19 Feb 2018, 18:27

Podcasts are life

User avatar
Andrew
Posts: 6021
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 21:52
Location: Vale of Eternal Fire

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Andrew » 19 Feb 2018, 20:27

Shem wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 18:20
When I was 12 my father took me to church and made me swear an oath to destroy all podcasts, so unless there's a transcript, I abstain.
Today I learned I have a half-brother.
We live in the fucked age. Get used to it. - dhex

holy shit there will never be an end until the sweet release of death (as dictated by the death panels, natch) - lunch

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 8691
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 19 Feb 2018, 20:34

Shem wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 18:20
When I was 12 my father took me to church and made me swear an oath to destroy all podcasts, so unless there's a transcript, I abstain.
You're in luck http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/0 ... erson.html
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 8691
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 19 Feb 2018, 20:48

Holy shit he's so much worse than I ever imagined
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Painboy and 2 guests