Masculinity, so fragile

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dhex
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by dhex » 02 Feb 2018, 07:54

this fuckin' guy over heah.
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the innominate one
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by the innominate one » 02 Feb 2018, 09:13

So, how did you vote?
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Sandy
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Sandy » 02 Feb 2018, 09:39

It really needed an option for "I can see how he got there, but it's deeply stupid if you think about it for more than one second."

Unless all those women at the shelter really did fall down the stairs.
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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 02 Feb 2018, 09:42

I can't tell you how many times I've heard/read dudes talking about how you have to deal with women differently because you don't have the last resort of hitting them.
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dhex
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by dhex » 02 Feb 2018, 10:03

do they have black belts in krav ma'jitsu?
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dhex
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by dhex » 02 Feb 2018, 10:04

the innominate one wrote:
02 Feb 2018, 09:13
So, how did you vote?
it's so fucking stupid i have trouble understanding either a) why anyone things this jabroni is the 5th horseman of the apocalypse or b) why anyone listens to him in the first place.

maybe our culture is entirely schmuckbait but having listened to him a bit and read his words i just don't get it. it's bro-lite. or a sugar-free bro substitute.
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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 02 Feb 2018, 10:04

He got to through the first furlong and then wondered off into a pasture. The threat of violence underlies all human interaction. A very large piece of cultural misogyny is rooted in the fact that men don't fear women but women reasonably fear men insofar as the constraint about fisticuffs is paper thin when things get real. It is 2018 and women should not fear men - because they should be willing and able to shoot men in the face, so there is a sense in which that fear by women is less reasonable than it once was. It is definitely not the case that men are disadvantaged in any context in which we acknowledge implicit power of violence.

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by the innominate one » 02 Feb 2018, 10:06

dhex wrote:
02 Feb 2018, 10:03
do they have black belts in krav ma'jitsu?
I have a brown belt and a black belt in different styles, but mainly it depends on what color pants I am wearing that day.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 02 Feb 2018, 10:37

Based on this "implicit option" I am going to head down to Stanford and become the dean since I am fairly certain I could take down more than 50% of the faculty in hand to hand.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by MJGreen » 02 Feb 2018, 10:45

Hey, at least the men recognize that they can't hit women. Give 'em some credit.

Seems like one could point to mansplaining and the like to say Peterson has it backwards: that because men have in mind a last resort to violence, they're less fearful of women opponents and know they can be verbally harsher and talk down to them. When debating against a big strong manly man - a Peterson, a Shapiro, a Milo - you may be more careful not to start shit.

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Sandy » 02 Feb 2018, 11:06

MJGreen wrote:
02 Feb 2018, 10:45
a big strong manly man - a Peterson, a Shapiro, a Milo
LOL. I see what you did there.

Though I do not even lift bro and Peterson would have reach on me. I think Milo works out, so I'd probably avoid that with him. But Shapiro? Yeah, I could probably get him in a headlock and give him noogies.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Sandy » 02 Feb 2018, 11:07

dhex wrote:
02 Feb 2018, 10:03
do they have black belts in krav ma'jitsu?
Krav m'lady.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

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Mo
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Mo » 02 Feb 2018, 12:19

TFW you think toxic masculinity is made up, but also toxic masculinity is why you can’t argue with women.
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the innominate one
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by the innominate one » 02 Feb 2018, 12:22

Oversimplification, I suspect, but I'd have to hear the details of what Peterson has said about toxic masculinity.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 02 Feb 2018, 12:25

It's weird that an "intellectual" like Jordan Peterson would nonetheless talk about settling disagreements with fisticuffs as though it were a good thing. The problem he has with women presumably due to that -- has he the same complaints about people like Stephen Hawking? "The problem with debating Stephen Hawking is that if you get annoyed and start beating the shit out of him, everybody starts white knighting like 'Waaa you hit a cripple what's wrong with you waaaa'."
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 02 Feb 2018, 12:26

I think it's a mistake to characterize the undercurrent of power by violence as a feature of dudebro buttheads. It is an inescapable feature of all human interaction - who can harm whom. The willingness to act upon it in a wider range of circumstances may well be toxic masculinity, but you can't think that an interaction between two people far apart on the capacity to harm spectrum is uninfluenced by that fact even if strong dude is the most wokest guy ever.

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the innominate one
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by the innominate one » 02 Feb 2018, 12:32

Jennifer wrote:
02 Feb 2018, 12:25
It's weird that an "intellectual" like Jordan Peterson would nonetheless talk about settling disagreements with fisticuffs as though it were a good thing.
Where did he do this?
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 02 Feb 2018, 12:34

JasonL wrote:
02 Feb 2018, 12:26
I think it's a mistake to characterize the undercurrent of power by violence as a feature of dudebro buttheads. It is an inescapable feature of all human interaction - who can harm whom. The willingness to act upon it in a wider range of circumstances may well be toxic masculinity, but you can't think that an interaction between two people far apart on the capacity to harm spectrum is uninfluenced by that fact even if strong dude is the most wokest guy ever.
FWIW I'm not; I'm just trying to figure out WTF Petersen's talking about re: Cathy Young's tweet: if he actually does think men today are at a "disadvantage" with women specifically becase it's not socially acceptable for y'all to hit us the way you might hit each other, does he have that same attitude toward men who are even weaker/more helpless than women?

Compare this statement: "Jordan Peterson said, in his interview w/Camille Paglia, that in any intellectual confrontation between men there's always an implicit option of settling things with fists; since it's not an option when arguing with a woman, men are at a disadvantage" to this one:

"Jordan Peterson said, in his interview w/Camille Paglia, that in any intellectual confrontation between able-bodied men there's always an implicit option of settling things with fists; since it's not an option when arguing with a disabled man such as Stephen Hawking, the able-bodied are at a disadvantage."


....so, um, am I supposed to like glean some important insight from Petersen regarding the roles of the disabled in society or something?
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 02 Feb 2018, 12:36

All you menfolk here have certainly disagreed with male co-workers about stuff; how often did you two resort to fistfighting to resolve it? And do you also prefer NOT to have female colleagues specifically because you know you can't punch them the way you can punch your male cow-orkers? And also prefer not to have any male colleagues with disabilities preventing them from fights?
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 02 Feb 2018, 12:41

the innominate one wrote:
02 Feb 2018, 12:32
Jennifer wrote:
02 Feb 2018, 12:25
It's weird that an "intellectual" like Jordan Peterson would nonetheless talk about settling disagreements with fisticuffs as though it were a good thing.
Where did he do this?
Point taken; perhaps I should've said "alluded to it as though it were to be expected, always." Otherwise, seriously: what presumably useful insight is he making here? If all of us here were interacting in person rather than over a web forum, if fist fights actually were a possibility .... are any of y'all really going to feel "disadvantaged" talking to me or Nicole or Ellie compared to anyone else, solely because you lack that "let's fight" option?

I dunno, maybe it's my lack of penis preventing me from seeing Petersen's point.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 02 Feb 2018, 12:45

The point he's trying to make is something about the cultural constraints on men putting them at disadvantages in various types of conflicts - provided nobody is willing to violate the social convention. I guess the most favorable take would be something like what's a dude supposed to do if on a date, there's an argument, and woman goes bananas on him, dumping a plate of food in his lap and slapping him.

I can't emphasize this enough - I think his point is fundamentally stupid, but I'm trying here to see what edge case he may have in mind.

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the innominate one
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by the innominate one » 02 Feb 2018, 12:48

Is Cathy Young's tweet a quote?

Must every generalization cover all situations and include all caveats about applicability or can reasonable listeners make reasonable assumptions about intended meaning? If intended meaning is unclear, can reasonable listeners ask for clarification without jumping to the worst possible interpretation?
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Sandy » 02 Feb 2018, 12:50

He's got the weirdest combination of evidence-based insights from psychological studies and Jungian Neo-Christian nonsense. His points are usually more sophisticated than the sound clips indicate, but...ultimately he's a TED talk read by Kermit the frog.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 02 Feb 2018, 12:57

JasonL wrote:
02 Feb 2018, 12:45
The point he's trying to make is something about the cultural constraints on men putting them at disadvantages in various types of conflicts - provided nobody is willing to violate the social convention. I guess the most favorable take would be something like what's a dude supposed to do if on a date, there's an argument, and woman goes bananas on him, dumping a plate of food in his lap and slapping him.

I can't emphasize this enough - I think his point is fundamentally stupid, but I'm trying here to see what edge case he may have in mind.
Ah, okay. I see his point if that's what it is, and agree it's fundamentally stupid for the same reasons I mentioned already. Yeah, your male self would be at a social disadvantage if I poured my drink in your lap, compared to another man doing the same thing .... but again, my female, able-bodied self would be at the same disadvantage if Stephen Hawking were to pour his drink in my lap, compared to if Ellie or Nicole did the same thing. I would be equally disadvantaged if a little kid did the pouring.

IOW, my response to Petersen isn't even "You're wrong" but "You're right, but so what?"
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Jennifer
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 02 Feb 2018, 13:04

And, of course, while social advantages tend to go toward the weaker party in these situations, it's precisely because they're the weaker party, and because the inherent physical advantages are the opposite: if Jason and I are together in public, I can maybe "get away with" various jerk moves which he can not ... but if we're together alone, the opposite is true; now he's the one with power to abuse if he wishes. Same for my other examples: Stephen Hawking can't physically defend himself from anybody, little kids can't defend themselves from able-bodied adults.... these are completely true statements. And so? What great insight shall we glean thereby?
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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