Masculinity, so fragile

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 20 Jul 2018, 13:46

nicole wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 13:28
Painboy wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:53
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:31
Warren wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:25

Fuck that noise. Lets get high and have sex.
Yeah, I never get why people are sad about not having some higher purpose. Bacon, rubbing one out, and reruns of good sitcoms are more than sufficient to qualify as a good life for me.
I like those things too but the feeiling I get when overcoming obstacles, especially ones I wasn't sure if I could overcome, creates a greater and longer lasting sense of joy than many of the more banal and transitory things you are talking about. Those things take so little effort that they are all but handed to you.
My personal take on the "pride of accomplishment" type feeling is that it is a dumb trick human psychology plays on you. Working hard to overcome an obstacle and achieve a good result might feel good, but the work is actually good only instrumentally. The idea that you are learning something that will help you down the road isn't wrong--but still, it will help you only instrumentally! If you never had to do hard work to achieve a goal again, there would be no point in learning that you were capable of hard work. It's only important to learn to overcome obstacles because you know there will be more of them. But obstacles are still bad and you should not want them just to think "oh, doing this was actually better and more valuable than getting high and jerking off." It's just an extra layer of jerking off so you can pretend you were doing something better than jerking off to begin with.
Yes. If in fifty years robots do all the labor and everything is so cheap due to that everything but real estate and art is nearly free, I don't think life will be meaningless unless you do stupid shit like mountain climbing or cave diving.

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Warren
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 20 Jul 2018, 13:51

nicole wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 13:28
Painboy wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:53
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:31
Warren wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:25

Fuck that noise. Lets get high and have sex.
Yeah, I never get why people are sad about not having some higher purpose. Bacon, rubbing one out, and reruns of good sitcoms are more than sufficient to qualify as a good life for me.
I like those things too but the feeiling I get when overcoming obstacles, especially ones I wasn't sure if I could overcome, creates a greater and longer lasting sense of joy than many of the more banal and transitory things you are talking about. Those things take so little effort that they are all but handed to you.
My personal take on the "pride of accomplishment" type feeling is that it is a dumb trick human psychology plays on you. Working hard to overcome an obstacle and achieve a good result might feel good, but the work is actually good only instrumentally. The idea that you are learning something that will help you down the road isn't wrong--but still, it will help you only instrumentally! If you never had to do hard work to achieve a goal again, there would be no point in learning that you were capable of hard work. It's only important to learn to overcome obstacles because you know there will be more of them. But obstacles are still bad and you should not want them just to think "oh, doing this was actually better and more valuable than getting high and jerking off." It's just an extra layer of jerking off so you can pretend you were doing something better than jerking off to begin with.
That's exactly what I think about physical activity. I wish I was active and had a strong healthy body. I put as much effort as I can will myself into it, which honestly is a truly pathetic showing. I can understand enjoying playing sports, or mountain biking, surfing, etc. But the notion of enjoying running or working out at the gym is beyond my understanding.
Bitch about Brexit to your hearts content, but stay out of my historical movies. - Nick Hodges

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Jennifer
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 20 Jul 2018, 13:52

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 13:46
nicole wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 13:28
Painboy wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:53
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:31
Warren wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:25

Fuck that noise. Lets get high and have sex.
Yeah, I never get why people are sad about not having some higher purpose. Bacon, rubbing one out, and reruns of good sitcoms are more than sufficient to qualify as a good life for me.
I like those things too but the feeiling I get when overcoming obstacles, especially ones I wasn't sure if I could overcome, creates a greater and longer lasting sense of joy than many of the more banal and transitory things you are talking about. Those things take so little effort that they are all but handed to you.
My personal take on the "pride of accomplishment" type feeling is that it is a dumb trick human psychology plays on you. Working hard to overcome an obstacle and achieve a good result might feel good, but the work is actually good only instrumentally. The idea that you are learning something that will help you down the road isn't wrong--but still, it will help you only instrumentally! If you never had to do hard work to achieve a goal again, there would be no point in learning that you were capable of hard work. It's only important to learn to overcome obstacles because you know there will be more of them. But obstacles are still bad and you should not want them just to think "oh, doing this was actually better and more valuable than getting high and jerking off." It's just an extra layer of jerking off so you can pretend you were doing something better than jerking off to begin with.
Yes. If in fifty years robots do all the labor and everything is so cheap due to that everything but real estate and art is nearly free, I don't think life will be meaningless unless you do stupid shit like mountain climbing or cave diving.
But people can still find meaning out of creating: art or literature for those who are so inclined; new video games of software whatevers for people whose interests lie in that direction; even having kids and doing a halfway decent job of raising them for people interested in that sort of thing. I can also see hobbyists taking their hobbies more seriously than they generally do now.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Andrew
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Andrew » 20 Jul 2018, 14:10

I'm sure pride of accomplishment is a dumb psychology trick, but that doesn't change the reality that it feels more satisfying than wallowing in my own crapulence.
We live in the fucked age. Get used to it. - dhex

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Jennifer
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 20 Jul 2018, 14:14

Andrew wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 14:10
I'm sure pride of accomplishment is a dumb psychology trick
What normal human emotion isn't? I'm sure we're all familiar with the sci-fi trope of aliens who are baffled by hyoomuns and these weird things we call ee-mo-shuns; all of our emotions can be made to sound irrational and stupid, if you look at them through that lens.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 20 Jul 2018, 14:16

Warren wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 13:51
nicole wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 13:28
Painboy wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:53
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:31
Warren wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:25

Fuck that noise. Lets get high and have sex.
Yeah, I never get why people are sad about not having some higher purpose. Bacon, rubbing one out, and reruns of good sitcoms are more than sufficient to qualify as a good life for me.
I like those things too but the feeiling I get when overcoming obstacles, especially ones I wasn't sure if I could overcome, creates a greater and longer lasting sense of joy than many of the more banal and transitory things you are talking about. Those things take so little effort that they are all but handed to you.
My personal take on the "pride of accomplishment" type feeling is that it is a dumb trick human psychology plays on you. Working hard to overcome an obstacle and achieve a good result might feel good, but the work is actually good only instrumentally. The idea that you are learning something that will help you down the road isn't wrong--but still, it will help you only instrumentally! If you never had to do hard work to achieve a goal again, there would be no point in learning that you were capable of hard work. It's only important to learn to overcome obstacles because you know there will be more of them. But obstacles are still bad and you should not want them just to think "oh, doing this was actually better and more valuable than getting high and jerking off." It's just an extra layer of jerking off so you can pretend you were doing something better than jerking off to begin with.
That's exactly what I think about physical activity. I wish I was active and had a strong healthy body. I put as much effort as I can will myself into it, which honestly is a truly pathetic showing. I can understand enjoying playing sports, or mountain biking, surfing, etc. But the notion of enjoying running or working out at the gym is beyond my understanding.
I mean, we can also use, to some extent, the dopey ideas and brains we were raised with. It's not like I don't get the "pride" chemboost sometimes; it's still a boost even if you remind yourself "that feeling is stupid and you're stupid for feeling it." I like running for both instrumental and noninstrumental reasons, and because I do expect to have to face more obstacles and hard work in my lifetime still get "rewarded" for feeling that I've put a lot of effort in so I can run a marathon or whatever. But I also know that being on heroin all the time would be better than running 15 miles, realistically.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Hugh Akston » 20 Jul 2018, 14:51

Can someone provide an example of 'overcoming an obstacle' so I have some kind of reference for what feeling that may have engendered?
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Inexplicably cockfighting monsters that live in your pants" ~Jadagul

Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 20 Jul 2018, 15:11

Finishing a long project, beating a hard level in a video game, persuading someone successfully, cleaning the house?

Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 20 Jul 2018, 15:15

I think that improving the aesthetics of our surroundings is a pretty obvious purpose that many people feel. Earning praise, even from strangers, is a fairly universal human terminal value as well. If you feel insecure, moving towards security can be a fairly animal-level motivation.

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Ellie
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Ellie » 20 Jul 2018, 15:38

Dangerman wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 15:11
Finishing a long project, beating a hard level in a video game, persuading someone successfully, cleaning the house?
Cleaning the house is FAKE NEWS. It gets messy again so fast that any sense of accomplishment is a lie.
I should have listened to Warren. He was right again as usual.

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 20 Jul 2018, 15:39

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
JasonL wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 09:20
You are missing-middling the claim, which is that there are nontrivial but non infinite numbers of people invested in the idea that it’s all circumstance and luck (FFF has said this to me and much of the liberal project is premised in it), that restraint on current desires is suffering . . .
If I said that I would have been oversimplifying in an attempt to get through your self-justification shield. I see that such is impossible.
I thought it was a truly expressed view from your helpless cog in the machine victim of circumstance happy place.

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 20 Jul 2018, 15:53

I don’t know that it is particularly useful or even insightful to categorize the whole of experience as a trick of psychology. Of course it is. But since everything is it doesn’t matter - this is the world of experience we have. You have to define the vision of the good you seek, then proceed as though that were intrinsically good. The more narrow your experience, the shorter the tolerance for effort or time horizons, the lower the sophistication of the good you can imagine. What of durable value lies within the sphere of your current state vs what may lie beyond if you go looking for it - yea even if it means climbing a hill that makes you sweat to see the other side. It is very difficult to replicate journeys though there may be quick ways to get to destinations.

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Hugh Akston » 20 Jul 2018, 17:58

JasonL wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 15:53
I don’t know that it is particularly useful or even insightful to categorize the whole of experience as a trick of psychology. Of course it is. But since everything is it doesn’t matter - this is the world of experience we have. You have to define the vision of the good you seek, then proceed as though that were intrinsically good. The more narrow your experience, the shorter the tolerance for effort or time horizons, the lower the sophistication of the good you can imagine. What of durable value lies within the sphere of your current state vs what may lie beyond if you go looking for it - yea even if it means climbing a hill that makes you sweat to see the other side. It is very difficult to replicate journeys though there may be quick ways to get to destinations.
So if someone defines their good as a quiet life of simple pleasures in the town where they were born, it's not clear how more "sophisticated" directed effort ends improve on that just because they are harder to achieve. If anything, the townie's vision is closer to your ideal because it is pure process/journey with no arbitrary end goals beyond the temporal practical ones of mowing the lawn and filling the tank.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Inexplicably cockfighting monsters that live in your pants" ~Jadagul

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 20 Jul 2018, 21:42

There’s an informed set of preferences an an uninformed set of preferences. Having a preference without ever having tried anything else is to me almost by definition an unsettled state. But, too, I’m fine with that set of preferences so long as we don’t spend a lot of calories trying to understand any despair or angst or whatever resulting from self imposed prison.

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Hugh Akston » 21 Jul 2018, 06:39

Informed preferences don't require direct personal experience in a culture where you can get a sense of alternatives through mass media, so uninformed preferences would be a difficult thing to achieve in the contemporary western world. But I mean the psychic effects should be debated and understood so they can be part of that preference information, whether your prison takes the form of a dead-end family life in your hometown or a hedonic hamster wheel of ultimately futile accomplishments.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Inexplicably cockfighting monsters that live in your pants" ~Jadagul

Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 21 Jul 2018, 10:25

I'm a man

but I can change

if I have to

I guess

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 21 Jul 2018, 12:45

The sense of alternatives through media is mediated through someone’s narrative and laughably thin. Media at its best is a place for ideas but it barely scratches experience. I know what New York is like I watched Sex and the City. Gay people are cool like on Queer Eye.

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 21 Jul 2018, 12:48

The choice not to experience is lesser and more constraining than the choice to experience.

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Hugh Akston » 22 Jul 2018, 04:56

I'm not sure. On the one hand, it's just possible that two cable shows are an inadequate synecdoche for the boggling array of means and media through which people communicate their values, ideas, and experiences. On the other hand, your contention that there's no adequate substitute for experience would go a long way toward explaining why it's so unpersuasive to hear that the secret to success is to pretend something is important and then grind away it.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Inexplicably cockfighting monsters that live in your pants" ~Jadagul

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 22 Jul 2018, 08:26

It’s meaningless to talk about something being important without attaching the idea of a will imbueing that characteristic. You can call that feature pretending if you want but you probably can’t reasonably get snarky about it if you want to assert that “importance” can mean anything at all.

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Warren
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 22 Jul 2018, 09:45

Yeah well, I've never experienced a kidney stone, but that doesn't mean I don't guzzle cranberry juice out of fear of getting one*, nor that that fear is unjustified or illusionary.


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