Masculinity, so fragile

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fyodor
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by fyodor » 09 Apr 2018, 21:25

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 00:19
Say what you will about Camille Paglia, at least she was entertaining while her fifteen minutes of public intellectual fame lasted.
She's always big fun, even when she's nuts.
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

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Ellie
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Ellie » 09 Apr 2018, 22:21

I appreciate her not giving his name out publicly, but don't appreciate her contacting his employers. Teabagging in video games is always funny. Exhibit A: http://www.screencuisine.net/screencuis ... s-edition/ -- specifically, the final point in the article
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Andrew
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Andrew » 09 Apr 2018, 22:57

Mortal Kombat might put her into a snowflake meltdown.
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thoreau
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by thoreau » 09 Apr 2018, 22:59

Between the social mores and the economic inequality this Second Victorian Era is pretty dystopian. When do we get the nanotech and Neal Stephenson plotlines?
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Eric the .5b » 10 Apr 2018, 02:50

Teabagging is so old. Are these people going to bring back that "Drops of Jupiter" song, too?
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by lunchstealer » 10 Apr 2018, 03:16

fyodor wrote:
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 00:19
Say what you will about Camille Paglia, at least she was entertaining while her fifteen minutes of public intellectual fame lasted.
She's always big fun, even when she's nuts.
She is literally the only reason I ever intentionally went to Salon.
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Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 10 Apr 2018, 08:59

Eric the .5b wrote:
10 Apr 2018, 02:50
Teabagging is so old. Are these people going to bring back that "Drops of Jupiter" song, too?
I had someone try to bunny hop me in a milsim last night. Made me think of FPS Dave.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Eric the .5b » 19 May 2018, 11:59

Peterson comes up as a discussion topic among left-of-center types on another forum...and it's kind of hilarious how scary they find him. "Oh, a guy who doesn't look like a barking lunatic is the scariest and most effect opposition to progressive ideas!"

Man, if that were true, the an-caps would have taken over and, you know, the current fucking president wouldn't be in office. But then, these people were convinced libertarians were their greatest enemies until people kept pointing out to them that Nazis love Trump.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 19 May 2018, 12:08

Peterson doesn't look like a lunatic?

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Painboy
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Painboy » 19 May 2018, 13:26

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
19 May 2018, 12:08
Peterson doesn't look like a lunatic?
He's an academic so it's hard to tell.

The last thing a certain part of the left wants is to normalize conservative academics, crazy or not.

On the right there are those who have a kind of penis envy for the left's academic intellectuals and just want someone in their corner who sounds like a person with a PhD who isn't a talk radio personality.

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dhex
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by dhex » 20 May 2018, 13:22

he's a critical theorist for people who think critical theorists are frightening. (or, more accurately, what critical theorists sound like to normies)
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 20 May 2018, 21:09

"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 19 Jul 2018, 15:59


Jordan B. Peterson wrote:Does life have a point? Most decidedly: Uphill, toward the city of God, in truth, with the world on your shoulders, taking maximal esponsibility for suffering and for the existence of evil.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 19 Jul 2018, 16:20

That is a good quote to illustrate my overall experience of the guy in relation to my worldview. See, to me, the idea of "having a point" isn't a great question. I don't know that anything has ever had a point in the way people seem to throw that phrase around, but I think that's an indictment of the emptiness of the question moreso than the emptiness of the answer. Universal sounding answers to that question are always suspect and are primary red flags that you are talking to a demagogue in training.

Beyond that, I do appreciate the conservative instincts about the uphillness of whatever types of experiences one might classify as worthwhile. There is a modern tendency to sort of act like the process of growth through directed effort, the act of achievement, the feeling of overcoming obstacles - that these things are somehow insignificant compared to whatever outcome you are "really" trying to achieve. That is - is there nothing in the process of self regulation implied in "getting in shape" that grants one access to a set of experiences one might highly value - and is it the case that the pursuit of the magic fitness pill is in some regard missing the point of the rewards of the journey. I know this sounds hopelessly hokey to a certain kind of libertine instinct - but I largely agree with Peterson when he sounds like "stop taking shortcuts". Overall, I think this is probably the best conservative instinct and it is not as laughable puritanical as some like to suggest via straw mannery.

But then - shove your city of god and responsibility for evil you didn't participate in. The struggle is to define the sort of person you aspire to become and walk up the hill to become that kind of admirable person and, importantly, not to limit yourself to the range of possibilities that are attainable only with minimal effort. You shoulder maximal responsibility for the evil you do and yes it means you have to pay attention in a way that passive existence may not adequately accommodate.

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Hugh Akston » 19 Jul 2018, 16:45

Those modern process-denying shortcut-taking libertines really need to knock it off with the strawmen.
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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 19 Jul 2018, 17:32

Hugh Akston wrote:Those modern process-denying shortcut-taking libertines really need to knock it off with the strawmen.
A certain type of libertine was the line. Those people should take directed effort more seriously, which is to say at a value greater than full mockery every time it comes up. But yes.

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Hugh Akston » 19 Jul 2018, 22:32

JasonL wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 17:32
Hugh Akston wrote:Those modern process-denying shortcut-taking libertines really need to knock it off with the strawmen.
A certain type of libertine was the line. Those people should take directed effort more seriously, which is to say at a value greater than full mockery every time it comes up. But yes.
Why though? What do these phantom libertines have to gain by taking seriously a worldview to which they don't subscribe? What do they lose by not doing so?
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Inexplicably cockfighting monsters that live in your pants" ~Jadagul

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lunchstealer
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by lunchstealer » 20 Jul 2018, 01:07

Hugh Akston wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 22:32
JasonL wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 17:32
Hugh Akston wrote:Those modern process-denying shortcut-taking libertines really need to knock it off with the strawmen.
A certain type of libertine was the line. Those people should take directed effort more seriously, which is to say at a value greater than full mockery every time it comes up. But yes.
Why though? What do these phantom libertines have to gain by taking seriously a worldview to which they don't subscribe? What do they lose by not doing so?
I read that as 'Libertine Avacado Wolfe', personally. So it's more the feel-good woo bullshittery of new age pomo self actualization through redefining issues you should maybe work to overcome as defining traits to celebrate.

Which is yeah a little strawmanny still, but it's also a thing.
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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 20 Jul 2018, 09:20

Hugh Akston wrote:
JasonL wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 17:32
Hugh Akston wrote:Those modern process-denying shortcut-taking libertines really need to knock it off with the strawmen.
A certain type of libertine was the line. Those people should take directed effort more seriously, which is to say at a value greater than full mockery every time it comes up. But yes.
Why though? What do these phantom libertines have to gain by taking seriously a worldview to which they don't subscribe? What do they lose by not doing so?
They aren’t phantom but they also aren’t every other person on earth. You are missing-middling the claim, which is that there are nontrivial but non infinite numbers of people invested in the idea that it’s all circumstance and luck (FFF has said this to me and much of the liberal project is premised in it), that restraint on current desires is suffering (Nicole and my sister both say this though behave differently in response).

Why should they take directed effort more seriously? There are consequences to failing to take seriously perspectives with higher correspondence to how the world actually functions? Some world views are destructive it isn’t the case we have to take all of them as equally valid?

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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 20 Jul 2018, 10:29

JasonL wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 16:20
That is a good quote to illustrate my overall experience of the guy in relation to my worldview. See, to me, the idea of "having a point" isn't a great question. I don't know that anything has ever had a point in the way people seem to throw that phrase around, but I think that's an indictment of the emptiness of the question moreso than the emptiness of the answer. Universal sounding answers to that question are always suspect and are primary red flags that you are talking to a demagogue in training.
I would take this further. Life doesn't have a point, and no one needs to hear that more than people who ask whether it does or what the point is. When a person like JBP responds with anything other than, "No, and if you feel like you need that, the only thing to do is make up a pretend one and hope you can trick yourself indefinitely," it means that person is trying to trick you instead, typically into doing something that will make their life seem meaningful. (Sometimes, e.g., if the person in JBP's role has sufficiently tricked himself, this may be unconscious.)
JasonL wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 16:20
Beyond that, I do appreciate the conservative instincts about the uphillness of whatever types of experiences one might classify as worthwhile. There is a modern tendency to sort of act like the process of growth through directed effort, the act of achievement, the feeling of overcoming obstacles - that these things are somehow insignificant compared to whatever outcome you are "really" trying to achieve. That is - is there nothing in the process of self regulation implied in "getting in shape" that grants one access to a set of experiences one might highly value - and is it the case that the pursuit of the magic fitness pill is in some regard missing the point of the rewards of the journey. I know this sounds hopelessly hokey to a certain kind of libertine instinct - but I largely agree with Peterson when he sounds like "stop taking shortcuts". Overall, I think this is probably the best conservative instinct and it is not as laughable puritanical as some like to suggest via straw mannery.

But then - shove your city of god and responsibility for evil you didn't participate in. The struggle is to define the sort of person you aspire to become and walk up the hill to become that kind of admirable person and, importantly, not to limit yourself to the range of possibilities that are attainable only with minimal effort. You shoulder maximal responsibility for the evil you do and yes it means you have to pay attention in a way that passive existence may not adequately accommodate.
I also think he's totally hypocritical on the last point because under his own worldview (i.e., not just mine) life is suffering, so he absolutely does not advise his followers to "take maximal responsibility for suffering" when he encourages them to form traditional families.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 20 Jul 2018, 12:25

nicole wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 15:59

Jordan B. Peterson wrote:Does life have a point? Most decidedly: Uphill, toward the city of God, in truth, with the world on your shoulders, taking maximal esponsibility for suffering and for the existence of evil.
Fuck that noise. Lets get high and have sex.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 20 Jul 2018, 12:31

Warren wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:25

Fuck that noise. Lets get high and have sex.
Yeah, I never get why people are sad about not having some higher purpose. Bacon, rubbing one out, and reruns of good sitcoms are more than sufficient to qualify as a good life for me.

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 20 Jul 2018, 12:40

JasonL wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 09:20
You are missing-middling the claim, which is that there are nontrivial but non infinite numbers of people invested in the idea that it’s all circumstance and luck (FFF has said this to me and much of the liberal project is premised in it), that restraint on current desires is suffering . . .
If I said that I would have been oversimplifying in an attempt to get through your self-justification shield. I see that such is impossible.

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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Painboy » 20 Jul 2018, 12:53

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:31
Warren wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:25

Fuck that noise. Lets get high and have sex.
Yeah, I never get why people are sad about not having some higher purpose. Bacon, rubbing one out, and reruns of good sitcoms are more than sufficient to qualify as a good life for me.
I like those things too but the feeiling I get when overcoming obstacles, especially ones I wasn't sure if I could overcome, creates a greater and longer lasting sense of joy than many of the more banal and transitory things you are talking about. Those things take so little effort that they are all but handed to you.

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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 20 Jul 2018, 13:28

Painboy wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:53
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:31
Warren wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 12:25

Fuck that noise. Lets get high and have sex.
Yeah, I never get why people are sad about not having some higher purpose. Bacon, rubbing one out, and reruns of good sitcoms are more than sufficient to qualify as a good life for me.
I like those things too but the feeiling I get when overcoming obstacles, especially ones I wasn't sure if I could overcome, creates a greater and longer lasting sense of joy than many of the more banal and transitory things you are talking about. Those things take so little effort that they are all but handed to you.
My personal take on the "pride of accomplishment" type feeling is that it is a dumb trick human psychology plays on you. Working hard to overcome an obstacle and achieve a good result might feel good, but the work is actually good only instrumentally. The idea that you are learning something that will help you down the road isn't wrong--but still, it will help you only instrumentally! If you never had to do hard work to achieve a goal again, there would be no point in learning that you were capable of hard work. It's only important to learn to overcome obstacles because you know there will be more of them. But obstacles are still bad and you should not want them just to think "oh, doing this was actually better and more valuable than getting high and jerking off." It's just an extra layer of jerking off so you can pretend you were doing something better than jerking off to begin with.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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