Uber fucked

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Highway
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Highway » 21 Mar 2018, 12:36

I dunno, someone who had a plot with a coworker to hold up their Blockbuster store almost 20 years ago and served their time seems like the kind of person you'd want to give a second chance to, I think. There's way too much "That person shouldn't have a job because they committed a crime decades ago."
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Sandy » 21 Mar 2018, 13:10

It's more the PR look, given their past history with drivers, as well as the PR look when the inevitable crash (or pedestrian flattening) happens.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by thoreau » 21 Mar 2018, 13:29

Uber has plenty of things to apologize for, quite possibly including this incident. (Not saying that they should but I want to wait a bit longer to be safe.) But hiring an ex-con is not one of those things. Especially if it turns out that a human would have had a hard time taking over quickly enough. Even if it should turn out that they made errors in the system, the design of this testing protocol, etc., it doesn't mean that their hiring was part of the problem.

The transgender identity of the person is a salacious tidbit, but it ought to be irrelevant. Harping on it will just make this more of a clusterfuck, not less.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Sandy » 21 Mar 2018, 16:41

thoreau wrote:
21 Mar 2018, 13:29
Uber has plenty of things to apologize for, quite possibly including this incident. (Not saying that they should but I want to wait a bit longer to be safe.) But hiring an ex-con is not one of those things. Especially if it turns out that a human would have had a hard time taking over quickly enough. Even if it should turn out that they made errors in the system, the design of this testing protocol, etc., it doesn't mean that their hiring was part of the problem.

The transgender identity of the person is a salacious tidbit, but it ought to be irrelevant. Harping on it will just make this more of a clusterfuck, not less.
No, that's just some extra-2018ery.

But I assure you, the ex-con status will feature prominently in the anti-automatic-car narrative.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Eric the .5b » 21 Mar 2018, 19:44

Highway wrote:
20 Mar 2018, 22:01
Eric the .5b wrote:
20 Mar 2018, 21:13
Highway wrote:
20 Mar 2018, 20:51
I worked on a project being constructed here in Ocean City that is replacing those brick medians with sand dune-based landscaping and a big visible fence, because they're having continual problems with people trying to cross that huge road mid-block to get to businesses on the other side, or to more directly go to the beach. It should end up looking pretty good, but the main thing is to make it obviously difficult to cross so that people go to the crosswalks.
I can see the attractive-nuisance angle of that median, but it really doesn't look anywhere as bad as the diagonal walkways with overhead lighting.
It's less the median and more the other side of the road. Even if it's steep, it doesn't stop people from just crossing mid-block. People definitely aren't going to the Ocean City median to hang out there. But it's part of design. If you don't want people there, make it obvious that they're not supposed to be there.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Sandy » 23 Mar 2018, 16:55

http://ideas.4brad.com/it-certainly-looks-bad-uber
Clearly there is a problem with the safety driver. She is not doing her job. She may face legal problems. She will certainly be fired. The real debate will be over Uber's policies on hiring, training and monitoring safety drivers, and the entire industry's policies.
I think the main problem is the software, because even my Prius should react in that situation. But there are a host of problems mentioned that look bad for Uber.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Highway » 23 Mar 2018, 18:52

Seeing the video and thinking about it for a while, I was also wondering if there was a problem with the LIDAR, because it shouldn't be beholden to just visible light, so it shouldn't have been "OMG So Close" when she popped into the headlight range. In any case, it's something that is not good for Uber, because like the writer said, she wasn't crossing from the right. She was well into the road. She was obviously crossing the road. The vehicle should see that and at least be more cautious about the situation.

Pinning it on the safety driver is convenient for everyone who's not that individual, and because of that, they'll get a lot of the blame, even though what they were doing is *exactly* what everyone who has thought about it expects people "driving" AVs will do. This is exactly the type of Level 3 failure we talked about above. But the important thing long term isn't blaming it on that individual. It's finding out why the vehicle's systems failed to spot an object blocking the road and fixing that problem.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Mo » 23 Mar 2018, 19:18

What’s interesting is experts say a human driver could have stopped as well because it wasn’t as dark as the video makes it seem.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Sandy » 23 Mar 2018, 19:43

Mo wrote:What’s interesting is experts say a human driver could have stopped as well because it wasn’t as dark as the video makes it seem.
You guys really should read what I linked to. All that and more is covered in there by an engineer who works on this stuff.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Highway » 23 Mar 2018, 19:46

Mo wrote:
23 Mar 2018, 19:18
What’s interesting is experts say a human driver could have stopped as well because it wasn’t as dark as the video makes it seem.
I think there's quite a range. Plenty of human drivers don't pay attention. Plenty of human drivers, when they are paying attention, are looking the wrong way. And really the functional limit of most low-beam headlights is about 40-45 miles per hour, so even if they were paying attention, it would have been a close miss at best. It doesn't really matter how dark it was or wasn't, what matters is that the person who was hit was in a hole in the lighting. They were just past the pool of light from the streetlight on the left, and it's much harder to see into the dark past the streetlight than if the whole road was unlit.

Could a human driver have stopped? Yes. Would every human driver have noticed the danger and stopped? That's a lot different, and nowhere near as certain. And on the other side of the equation, how many people would walk in front of a vehicle? It was much easier for the pedestrian to see the oncoming car. There doesn't appear to have been any other traffic on the road behind the AV or in the other lane (based on the rear looking views inside the car). Yet she continued to cross the street. Maybe she thought she could make it? I dunno, but she wasn't even close. And yet, I think that the sheriff was far to quick to pin all the blame on the pedestrian.

It's a certainty that an AV *SHOULD* mitigate this type of collision. There should have been a reaction: emergency braking, evasive maneuver, something. And there doesn't seem to have been any of that. The AV flat-out missed it. That's bad. And that's something we need to know, and they need to fix. If a Waymo vehicle wouldn't have had that same problem, we need to know why, and what the difference is, and why Uber is operating vehicles with a lower capacity. Did they think it was good enough? They were definitely wrong, there.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by JD » 23 Mar 2018, 20:24

Sandy wrote:
23 Mar 2018, 16:55
http://ideas.4brad.com/it-certainly-looks-bad-uber
Clearly there is a problem with the safety driver. She is not doing her job. She may face legal problems. She will certainly be fired. The real debate will be over Uber's policies on hiring, training and monitoring safety drivers, and the entire industry's policies.
I think the main problem is the software, because even my Prius should react in that situation. But there are a host of problems mentioned that look bad for Uber.
A lot of people seem to think that the point of the human driver is to be ever-vigilant and instantly yank control away from the robo-driver at the first sign of trouble. This latest accident totally aside, that's completely unrealistic and AFAICT has never been the point of the human driver in self-driving cars once they were out of alpha. The human is there for when the robo-driver decides it can't handle the situation and actively turns over control to the human (and how often they need to do that has been kind of the dirty secret of most self-driving cars).

Really, even if the human were that vigilant, it probably wouldn't really help because it adds time to the human's decision-making process: instead of seeing something and reacting to it, the human would have to wait and see if the robo-driver is going to do anything.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Sandy » 24 Mar 2018, 01:11

JD wrote:
Sandy wrote:
23 Mar 2018, 16:55
http://ideas.4brad.com/it-certainly-looks-bad-uber
Clearly there is a problem with the safety driver. She is not doing her job. She may face legal problems. She will certainly be fired. The real debate will be over Uber's policies on hiring, training and monitoring safety drivers, and the entire industry's policies.
I think the main problem is the software, because even my Prius should react in that situation. But there are a host of problems mentioned that look bad for Uber.
A lot of people seem to think that the point of the human driver is to be ever-vigilant and instantly yank control away from the robo-driver at the first sign of trouble. This latest accident totally aside, that's completely unrealistic and AFAICT has never been the point of the human driver in self-driving cars once they were out of alpha. The human is there for when the robo-driver decides it can't handle the situation and actively turns over control to the human (and how often they need to do that has been kind of the dirty secret of most self-driving cars).

Really, even if the human were that vigilant, it probably wouldn't really help because it adds time to the human's decision-making process: instead of seeing something and reacting to it, the human would have to wait and see if the robo-driver is going to do anything.
That’s a reasonable point, though in this case the question is whether a human driver, with a wider dynamic range of visual perception, would have seen and stopped or slowed in time. That being said, the article spells out how they are deployed in most programs splits the roles into someone monitoring the road and someone monitoring the software. So in those programs the driver would have at least noticed if not started to brake and possibly slowed the collision below fatal speed.

That’s separate from legal responsibility on the part of the driver.

The suggestion that LIDAR was off to test the other systems might make Uber at least liable, if not criminally responsible.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Mo » 27 Mar 2018, 01:12

So Uber apparently disabled the standard Volvo safety features, which Intel demonstrated detected the pedestrian 1 second sooner using the grainy ass video.

https://m.sfgate.com/business/article/U ... 782878.php
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Jadagul » 27 Mar 2018, 01:16

Mo wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 01:12
So Uber apparently disabled the standard Volvo safety features, which Intel demonstrated detected the pedestrian 1 second sooner using the grainy ass video.

https://m.sfgate.com/business/article/U ... 782878.php
On the one hand, this is apparently standard practice---which makes some sense in order to test their systems.

On the other hand, it means the system in Uber's "self-driving" cars---which, remember, they want to actually deploy in like a year---is in many cases less good than the mass market Volvo safety interlocks.

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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Warren » 27 Mar 2018, 09:48

My new car has all the driver assist features that not only detect lane departure but also nudge the steering to keep you in your lane. I thought they'd be annoying but having driven with them, I find that I welcome the intervention when it's needed. I worry that my driving will adapt to depend on them.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by lunchstealer » 27 Mar 2018, 13:26

Warren wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 09:48
My new car has all the driver assist features that not only detect lane departure but also nudge the steering to keep you in your lane. I thought they'd be annoying but having driven with them, I find that I welcome the intervention when it's needed. I worry that my driving will adapt to depend on them.
The two that work best in mine are the adaptive cruise control and the blindspot monitoring. I haven't done enough long distance not-city driving to make adaptive cruise control routine, and the blindspot monitoring has actually improved my driving. It lights a light on the side-view mirrors when it detects an object moving alongside my back quarter panel, but if my turn signal is on, it also sounds an alarm chirp. That's really encouraged me to always turn on my turn signal for lane changes so I get that extra feedback.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Warren » 27 Mar 2018, 13:48

lunchstealer wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 13:26
Warren wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 09:48
My new car has all the driver assist features that not only detect lane departure but also nudge the steering to keep you in your lane. I thought they'd be annoying but having driven with them, I find that I welcome the intervention when it's needed. I worry that my driving will adapt to depend on them.
The two that work best in mine are the adaptive cruise control and the blindspot monitoring. I haven't done enough long distance not-city driving to make adaptive cruise control routine, and the blindspot monitoring has actually improved my driving. It lights a light on the side-view mirrors when it detects an object moving alongside my back quarter panel, but if my turn signal is on, it also sounds an alarm chirp. That's really encouraged me to always turn on my turn signal for lane changes so I get that extra feedback.
I hate blind spot monitoring. It's a thing because people like you don't know how to adjust your mirrors. I don't have blind spots. But I can barely get them there with this car as the mirrors are at their end of travel. Now I have this distracting light that comes on every time a car passes by.

I'm encourage to use the turn signal for lane change so the car doesn't activate the lane departure assist.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Highway » 27 Mar 2018, 13:53

The real shame is that Honda has discontinued using LaneWatch, which is far superior to blindspot monitoring. It's so superior that I would gladly give up the left side mirror for a screen mounted in the area to the left of the dash (in the line of sight for the left mirror) that could switch to a left-side LaneWatch as well.

On the subject of cameras and screens, the wide-angle rear view camera is so much better for backing out of parking spaces that I think they need a front-facing one as well, to let you see when you're pulling forward out of parking spaces or side streets. Especially when you have to pull out from between two giant mommycruiser boxes, which of course have dark tinted rear windows because no way should you have a chance of seeing any vehicles coming...
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by lunchstealer » 27 Mar 2018, 18:53

You don't drive on three lane roads where you and someone else might merge into the same lane from opposite directions. There's no combo of mirrors possible that will eliminate blind spots in the second lane to your left.

Also you're short* so your head is probably not likely to be right next to the B pillar in most normal driving positions. Even with my mirrors pointed outward such that I have to lean way over to see the immediate side of the car, I can end up knowing that a car is somewhere on my left, but can't see it.

*short by my standards is 'under six feet tall' because that's how I experience the world.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Kwix » 27 Mar 2018, 20:12

lunchstealer wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 18:53
You don't drive on three lane roads where you and someone else might merge into the same lane from opposite directions. There's no combo of mirrors possible that will eliminate blind spots in the second lane to your left.
My favorite here is the combo highway on/off ramp. That's a nominally two lane highway with a temporary acceleration/deceleration lane.
Like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@61.1354175 ... a=!3m1!1e3
or this (where the lane disappears):
https://www.google.com/maps/@61.5596369 ... a=!3m1!1e3

You get people who want to merge onto the highway and then immediately get into the passing lane so they don't get stymied by people merging from the passing lane, through the slow lane, over to the off ramp.
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Highway
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Highway » 27 Mar 2018, 20:23

Kwix wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 20:12
lunchstealer wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 18:53
You don't drive on three lane roads where you and someone else might merge into the same lane from opposite directions. There's no combo of mirrors possible that will eliminate blind spots in the second lane to your left.
My favorite here is the combo highway on/off ramp. That's a nominally two lane highway with a temporary acceleration/deceleration lane.
Like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@61.1354175 ... a=!3m1!1e3
or this (where the lane disappears):
https://www.google.com/maps/@61.5596369 ... a=!3m1!1e3

You get people who want to merge onto the highway and then immediately get into the passing lane so they don't get stymied by people merging from the passing lane, through the slow lane, over to the off ramp.
That's a standard weave movement. There are plenty of highway design guidelines for them. The operational ideas are that people shouldn't significantly decelerate until they're in the auxiliary lane, and that people exiting the highway should let the people accelerating onto the highway go in front of them (if they start out near to side-by-side) because that 1) opens up a gap in the highway lane and 2) keeps someone from accelerating while looking left into the back of someone who has slowed down in front of them.

In reality, weaves are one of the most problematic movements, and are a significant reason for most of the cloverleaf interchange reconfigurations. Not that there's anything particularly good about cloverleafs anyway. They only thing that they do is allow for all movements with no path crossing, but that comes at the expense of weaves. And the same thing can be achieved now with flyovers now that structure has gotten significantly cheaper.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Kwix » 27 Mar 2018, 20:31

Highway wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 20:23
They only thing that they do is allow for all movements with no path crossing, but that comes at the expense of weaves. And the same thing can be achieved now with flyovers now that structure has gotten significantly cheaper.
This is where I tell you that this configuration is under 20 years old.
However, our state just opened its first diverging diamond this past summer so... progress?
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Highway » 27 Mar 2018, 22:36

There are still a lot of weave locations being used. Especially in lower volume situations, and where it's not a crossing. And sometimes that's the only thing that fits.

Diverging diamonds are fun.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Highway » 04 May 2018, 18:41

Meanwhile, a Waymo vehicle gets into an accident... when another car crosses into oncoming traffic and hits it.
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Re: Uber fucked

Post by Warren » 04 May 2018, 19:58

Highway wrote:
04 May 2018, 18:41
Meanwhile, a Waymo vehicle gets into an accident... when another car crosses into oncoming traffic and hits it.
I like how a driver crosses over the medium and hits an oncoming Waymo van and the headline is "Self-driving car crash in Arizona".
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