If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13823
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Eric the .5b » 23 Jul 2019, 22:56

Taktix® wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 22:13
71% are in private facilities, as of November 2017. Which appears to be the most recent data since ICE hasn't submitted any new numbers since.
Good to know; that's radically different from the public/private ratio in the prison system.
Taktix® wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 22:13
ETA: Also, why bring up "the Blues"?
Because I live on this planet, and you cited NPR.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24498
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Jennifer » 26 Jul 2019, 17:31

Regarding Sophie's choice: a top CBP official testified that he's not sure if that three-year-old is "a criminal or national security threat."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... 8NrsAhEI78
The 3-year-old in question was Sofi, a little girl who was separated from her grandmother after they arrived at a port of entry in El Paso, Texas, last June seeking asylum. She was separated from her family for 47 days, until the Trump administration was forced to reunite them by court order. Chief of Law Enforcement Operations for Customs and Border Protection Brian S. Hastings still isn’t sure if she posed a threat, he told Rep. Ted Lieu during the Judiciary Committee hearing on Thursday.

Ted Lieu: Sofi is not a criminal or a national security threat to the United States as a 3-year-old, correct?

Hastings: I don’t know the background in this case, sir.

Ted Lieu: Do you know any 3-year-olds that are criminal or national security threats to the United States?

Hastings: No, I don’t.

Ted Lieu: Sophie’s grandmother was not a national security or criminal threat to the United States, correct?

Hastings: I don’t know—again, I don’t know the background of what her grandmother or relatives were.

--snip--

Hastings could not explain in even the simplest terms how his officers had gone about removing children from their parents; he further admitted there was no “minimum time” for warning parents they were about to be separated from their children perhaps forever. The denouement came when Hastings confessed what the administration had long denied: that there was no intent ever to reunite the families when the policy was first implemented.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28484
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by thoreau » 26 Jul 2019, 19:42

SCOTUS is allowing Trump to move funds from various Pentagon accounts to wall construction.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/26/politics ... index.html

Yes, yes, I have no doubt that there are a whole host of complicated legal and accounting issues here, and I will not criticize the Court's reasoning, as I couldn't possibly offer an informed critique.

What I do know is that we have a system in which Congress can say "We haven't allocated money for this and we explicitly refuse to do so" and then the President can do it anyway.

Again, I have no doubt that this is 100% legal and wholly consistent with all existing law and precedent. I am not criticizing the system as it exists, because I understand how important and proper and reasonable it is. I am merely describing how it functions. It functions in such a way that the President can spend money however he chooses, even if Congress refuses to authorize it, and that is the existing system and no sane or reasonable person should critique it.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24498
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Jennifer » 26 Jul 2019, 21:10

Well, Thoreau, it's already been established in Congressional testimony that we can't be certain those three-year-olds aren't threats to national security.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28484
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by thoreau » 26 Jul 2019, 22:12

Jennifer wrote:
26 Jul 2019, 21:10
Well, Thoreau, it's already been established in Congressional testimony testimony before a vestigial organ that we can't be certain those three-year-olds aren't threats to national security.
FTFY
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24498
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Jennifer » 26 Jul 2019, 22:16

The Trump Administration Is Making Immigrant Parents Pay $800 for DNA Tests to Get Their Kids Back

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/trump-a ... soc_trk=fb
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Andrew
Posts: 6724
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 21:52
Location: Vale of Eternal Fire

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Andrew » 26 Jul 2019, 22:17

Children: threat and menace.
We live in the fucked age. Get used to it. - dhex

The sun only shines when a woman is being sexually abused. - Warren

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28484
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by thoreau » 07 Aug 2019, 22:39

Everyone at ICE needs to donate their organs. Now.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/ ... on-1643512
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28484
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by thoreau » 07 Aug 2019, 23:10

I have a lot of schizophrenic relatives. What they did to that man makes me want to take a vacation from Christianity and do things to Trump that would make me a hero to 7 billion people.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 16133
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Aresen » 08 Aug 2019, 00:00

thoreau wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 22:39
Everyone at ICE needs to donate their organs. Now.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/ ... on-1643512
This is no different than the hijackers who used to shoot passengers until the authorities met their demands. If I understand the whole "DREAM" thing, the idea was that people like this man would be able to stay.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28484
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by thoreau » 08 Aug 2019, 00:08

Every time that Trump appeared on the TV at the gym I started swearing and waving the middle finger.

He sent a schizophrenic man to die on the streets. For his sake I hope that I manage to remain a Christian. Otherwise I'm going to go to Mar Lago and ignore what I was taught in Catholic grade school.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 16133
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Aresen » 08 Aug 2019, 00:15

thoreau wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 00:08
Every time that Trump appeared on the TV at the gym I started swearing and waving the middle finger.
I see. You keep the TV on at the gym to add some adrenaline to your cardio workout. :P
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24498
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Jennifer » 08 Aug 2019, 19:40

"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24841
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Mo » 09 Aug 2019, 08:20

Yglesias is right here. If it’s all about following the law, punish the employers. I know some golf courses and Palm Beach resorts we can start with.

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
JD
Posts: 11173
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:26

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by JD » 09 Aug 2019, 10:18

Build It/Facebook Follies crossover: I've seen a bunch of posts implying or openly stating that Koch Foods called ICE after losing a discrimination lawsuit brought by their workers. I won't say that this is impossible or obviously untrue, but it seems like a claim requiring some real evidence. We're supposed to believe that Koch Foods knowingly hired illegal immigrants (which is itself a crime), then after losing a lawsuit that was, pardon the expression, chicken feed ($3.75 million), they called ICE on their own workers, thereby losing about half their workforce and costing themselves millions of dollars?
I sort of feel like a sucker about aspiring to be intellectually rigorous when I could just go on twitter and say capitalism causes space herpes and no one will challenge me on it. - Hugh Akston

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24841
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Mo » 09 Aug 2019, 12:32

It’s not that crazy. It’s near term pain to reduce more significant long term pain. If there’re no actions against the employers, I would consider that theory more likely than not.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 4182
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Painboy » 09 Aug 2019, 12:42

I don't see what going after employers would do to help things. These people are already desperate enough to find work. You would be just making it harder to find a job pushing them even further into a black market.

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28484
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2019, 12:49

Going after employers would indeed make things worse from the perspective of people who are sympathetic to immigrants. However, from the perspective of people who think we can substantially reduce immigration by harsh enforcement, going after employers (the DEMAND KURVE for immigrant labor) makes at least as much sense as going after immigrants (the SUPPLY KURVE). The fact that they consistently go after the more vulnerable of the two sides (say what you will about the relative powers of cops and corporations, but the corporations can afford better lawyers than the immigrants) tells you something.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 16133
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Aresen » 09 Aug 2019, 13:31

I am totally sure that MAGA types are lining up for the jerbs those illegal immigrants took away from them at the chicken processing plant.
/snark
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24841
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Mo » 09 Aug 2019, 13:39

Also, most of those employers are big donors. Actually making their lives difficult rather than giving them leverage over their employees may actually cause them to re-examine their behavior.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28484
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2019, 13:56

Mo wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 13:39
Also, most of those employers are big donors. Actually making their lives difficult rather than giving them leverage over their employees may actually cause them to re-examine their behavior.
Good point. Deporting their employees makes business difficult for a few months. But in the long-term it makes it much easier to control the next batch of employees. "Hey, we've asked no questions about your paperwork, it would be a real shame if you caused us any trouble, I mean, the guy here before you, somebody looked at his paperwork and..."
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 4182
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Painboy » 09 Aug 2019, 14:07

I'm still not clear on how this makes an immigrant trying to find work any better off. If you crack down on businesses not only will it dry up work for immigrants it may make those businesses averse to hiring anyone that they might be close to that category. Like they start profiling anyone who might fit the stereotype of an illegal immigrant.

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28484
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2019, 14:11

First, we aren't saying that cracking down on business will make things better from our perspective. We're saying that not cracking down on businesses shows the hypocrisy and/or mean-spiritedness of the pro-deportation side. They're going after the parties who can least afford good lawyers, rather than going after the demand for immigrant labor. There'd be far less immigration if there were far less demand for immigrant labor. But they don't care about what they claim to care about, they care about going after vulnerable people.

Also, going after immigrant workers gives businesses more leverage over them. It would be better to go after neither side and just let people negotiate in open markets, rather than wielding force against labor markets. But the xenophobes don't want that. They want the iron glove of the state wielded against the vulnerable, and in the cruelest way possible.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24841
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Mo » 09 Aug 2019, 14:13

If you put a few poultry execs in jail or fine them, they likely lobby as hard for immigration reform as they do for 4% off top marginal tax rates.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 27360
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Warren » 09 Aug 2019, 14:19

Mo wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 14:13
If you put a few poultry execs in jail or fine them, they likely lobby as hard for immigration reform as they do for 4% off top marginal tax rates.
You can't possibly believe this.
It's dumb out there kids, keep your heads down. - JasonL

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests