If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

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Mo
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Mo » 25 Jan 2018, 20:46

Republicans are upset at a plan because it's not harsh enough, but cuts legal immigration by 50%. What ever happened to "We're no anti-immigration, we're anti-illegal immigration"?
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Aresen
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Aresen » 25 Jan 2018, 21:08

Mo wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 20:46
Republicans are upset at a plan because it's not harsh enough, but cuts legal immigration by 50%. What ever happened to "We're no anti-immigration, we're anti-illegal immigration"?
It's almost like they're surprised when they dog-whistle and the dog comes running.
Last edited by Aresen on 25 Jan 2018, 22:19, edited 1 time in total.
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the innominate one
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by the innominate one » 25 Jan 2018, 22:06

Mo wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 20:46
Republicans are upset at a plan because it's not harsh enough, but cuts legal immigration by 50%. What ever happened to "We're no anti-immigration, we're anti-illegal immigration"?
I assume that's rhetorical. They were lying.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

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Mo
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Mo » 25 Jan 2018, 23:06

Very rhetorical. Earlier this year NR was trying to pass off, "Just because we want significant cuts in legal immigration doesn't mean we're anti-immigration because we still want some immigrants."
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 26 Jan 2018, 10:05

Jadagul pointed this out somewhere on here, and I think he's right, that some people who want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants, others mean they want no brown folk, and under Trump it is becoming clear who meant what.
". . . even the federalist folk are probably a bit wary, and they're essentially cosplaying the preacher from footloose." - dhex

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nicole
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by nicole » 26 Jan 2018, 10:25

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 10:05
Jadagul pointed this out somewhere on here, and I think he's right, that some people who want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants, others mean they want no brown folk, and under Trump it is becoming clear who meant what.
Yeah, because all those people are now saying "actually we just don't want immigrants at all."
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Mo
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Mo » 26 Jan 2018, 10:37

Also, you get people who ordinarily say family is important and a vital part of the social safety net, but immigrants can't bring their "extended* family". Also, that a college education and high paying jobs don't make urban elites better, what's important is hard work and values, but the only measure of merit for furriners is ... a college education and high paying jobs.

* Where extended somehow includes relatives as distant as siblings and adult children
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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nicole
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by nicole » 26 Jan 2018, 10:55

Ugh I'm just really angry about this.
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Mo
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Mo » 26 Jan 2018, 10:56

Same here. Though I am admittedly biased because I'm a chain migration baby.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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nicole
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by nicole » 26 Jan 2018, 11:01

Me too, Mo.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 26 Jan 2018, 11:08

nicole wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 10:25
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 10:05
Jadagul pointed this out somewhere on here, and I think he's right, that some people who want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants, others mean they want no brown folk, and under Trump it is becoming clear who meant what.
Yeah, because all those people are now saying "actually we just don't want immigrants at all."
While there's been a lot more people saying that, I am hoping to see how the pre-Trump institutional GOP breaks out, which hasn't happened too much yet. I expect it's an 80% no immigrants at all party.
". . . even the federalist folk are probably a bit wary, and they're essentially cosplaying the preacher from footloose." - dhex

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Jadagul
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Jadagul » 26 Jan 2018, 14:59

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 11:08
nicole wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 10:25
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 10:05
Jadagul pointed this out somewhere on here, and I think he's right, that some people who want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants, others mean they want no brown folk, and under Trump it is becoming clear who meant what.
Yeah, because all those people are now saying "actually we just don't want immigrants at all."
While there's been a lot more people saying that, I am hoping to see how the pre-Trump institutional GOP breaks out, which hasn't happened too much yet. I expect it's an 80% no immigrants at all party.
One relevant factor is (and always, clearly, has been) that the party elites are more pro-immigration than the base. Part of what's happened lately is the base bitch-slapping the elites over this fact.

This is an example of why I tend to like elite governance.

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 26 Jan 2018, 15:09

Jadagul wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 14:59
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 11:08
nicole wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 10:25
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 10:05
Jadagul pointed this out somewhere on here, and I think he's right, that some people who want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants, others mean they want no brown folk, and under Trump it is becoming clear who meant what.
Yeah, because all those people are now saying "actually we just don't want immigrants at all."
While there's been a lot more people saying that, I am hoping to see how the pre-Trump institutional GOP breaks out, which hasn't happened too much yet. I expect it's an 80% no immigrants at all party.
One relevant factor is (and always, clearly, has been) that the party elites are more pro-immigration than the base. Part of what's happened lately is the base bitch-slapping the elites over this fact.

This is an example of why I tend to like elite governance.
I am thinking that the elite is less pro-immigration than previously thought. Whether this is more because the base and Trump has greatly lessened the possibility of the GOP peeling off minority voters in the near future or actual policy preference is unclear to me.
". . . even the federalist folk are probably a bit wary, and they're essentially cosplaying the preacher from footloose." - dhex

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Jadagul
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Jadagul » 26 Jan 2018, 15:27

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 15:09
Jadagul wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 14:59
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 11:08
nicole wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 10:25
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 10:05
Jadagul pointed this out somewhere on here, and I think he's right, that some people who want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants, others mean they want no brown folk, and under Trump it is becoming clear who meant what.
Yeah, because all those people are now saying "actually we just don't want immigrants at all."
While there's been a lot more people saying that, I am hoping to see how the pre-Trump institutional GOP breaks out, which hasn't happened too much yet. I expect it's an 80% no immigrants at all party.
One relevant factor is (and always, clearly, has been) that the party elites are more pro-immigration than the base. Part of what's happened lately is the base bitch-slapping the elites over this fact.

This is an example of why I tend to like elite governance.
I am thinking that the elite is less pro-immigration than previously thought. Whether this is more because the base and Trump has greatly lessened the possibility of the GOP peeling off minority voters in the near future or actual policy preference is unclear to me.
I would say, rather, that the Republican elites have become less pro-immigration, as a matter of public actions, than they had been for most of my life. I think this is largely driven by parts of the base making it a focus, and probably also by this becoming a partisan issue---the Democrats are being more pro-immigration than they were ten years ago.

I don't think that this really reflects what's in Paul Ryan's private heartfelt beliefs, or anything. I suspect if you made Paul Ryan into all-powerful dictator, he'd keep total immigration constant or increase it, and also pass a DREAM act like bill. But he's a politician (and human) who responds to incentives, and the incentives for Republican politicians are to limit immigration.

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Painboy
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Painboy » 26 Jan 2018, 15:52

Jadagul wrote:
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 15:09
Jadagul wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 14:59
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 11:08
nicole wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 10:25
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 10:05
Jadagul pointed this out somewhere on here, and I think he's right, that some people who want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants want a point based system to bring in highly skilled immigrants, others mean they want no brown folk, and under Trump it is becoming clear who meant what.
Yeah, because all those people are now saying "actually we just don't want immigrants at all."
While there's been a lot more people saying that, I am hoping to see how the pre-Trump institutional GOP breaks out, which hasn't happened too much yet. I expect it's an 80% no immigrants at all party.
One relevant factor is (and always, clearly, has been) that the party elites are more pro-immigration than the base. Part of what's happened lately is the base bitch-slapping the elites over this fact.

This is an example of why I tend to like elite governance.
I am thinking that the elite is less pro-immigration than previously thought. Whether this is more because the base and Trump has greatly lessened the possibility of the GOP peeling off minority voters in the near future or actual policy preference is unclear to me.
I would say, rather, that the Republican elites have become less pro-immigration, as a matter of public actions, than they had been for most of my life. I think this is largely driven by parts of the base making it a focus, and probably also by this becoming a partisan issue---the Democrats are being more pro-immigration than they were ten years ago.

I don't think that this really reflects what's in Paul Ryan's private heartfelt beliefs, or anything. I suspect if you made Paul Ryan into all-powerful dictator, he'd keep total immigration constant or increase it, and also pass a DREAM act like bill. But he's a politician (and human) who responds to incentives, and the incentives for Republican politicians are to limit immigration.
+1

Also according to the bunker sticker I read the other day "America is full".

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the innominate one
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by the innominate one » 26 Jan 2018, 16:06

"of it"
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

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nicole
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by nicole » 26 Jan 2018, 16:08

Painboy wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 15:52


Also according to the bunker sticker I read the other day "America is full".
I look forward to the coming 50% reduction in legal immigration from in utero.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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Aresen
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Aresen » 26 Jan 2018, 16:35

Painboy wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 15:52
Also according to the bunker sticker I read the other day "America is full".
"Bunker sticker"? You're a survivalist?
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Most people don't realize Stephen King downplayed the horror that is Maine. - Jennifer

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Andrew
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Andrew » 26 Jan 2018, 16:56

Aresen wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 16:35
Painboy wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 15:52
Also according to the bunker sticker I read the other day "America is full".
"Bunker sticker"? You're a survivalist?
He's still surviving, isn't he?
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by dead_elvis » 03 Feb 2018, 14:51

There's gold in them thar paranoia...
San Diego Sheriff’s Department deputies, fearing large-scale protests over the construction of President Donald Trump’s border wall prototypes last fall, logged more than 10,000 hours of overtime in a three-month period before and after project construction.

The department had previously disclosed it had spent $764,278 on overtime for security. It was the largest single expenditure — more than the $715,170 in wages paid out — of a total expense of $1.6 million.
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/new ... story.html
"Never forget: a war on undocumented immigrants by necessity is a war on all of our freedoms of association and movement."

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dead_elvis
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by dead_elvis » 15 Feb 2018, 11:51

Goddamnit, this is just plain mean spirited... I'm just really troubled by this trend of not just playing with immigration numbers and visas and official immigration policy but of mean spiritedness on a personal level. Like with the blanket travel ban interfering with cultural and scientific co-operation with Officially Disfavored Foreigners, it seems designed to try and create a zeitgeist of xenophobia by denying even simple harmless humanitarian impulses. Even if you're here legally, they just want to make sure you don't forget that they will find a way to fuck with you over even the most harmless-to-them-but-crucial-to-you things.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/new ... story.html
"Never forget: a war on undocumented immigrants by necessity is a war on all of our freedoms of association and movement."

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Kolohe
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Kolohe » 15 Feb 2018, 12:29

They went the Full Orwell with Friendship Park.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Jadagul
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Jadagul » 15 Feb 2018, 16:50

dead_elvis wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 11:51
Goddamnit, this is just plain mean spirited... I'm just really troubled by this trend of not just playing with immigration numbers and visas and official immigration policy but of mean spiritedness on a personal level. Like with the blanket travel ban interfering with cultural and scientific co-operation with Officially Disfavored Foreigners, it seems designed to try and create a zeitgeist of xenophobia by denying even simple harmless humanitarian impulses. Even if you're here legally, they just want to make sure you don't forget that they will find a way to fuck with you over even the most harmless-to-them-but-crucial-to-you things.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/new ... story.html
Right.

There's a reasonable argument to be made for reducing immigration levels. I don't believe it, but it's not insane or anything.

But there seems to be a policy of, basically, "fuck the Mexicans, they should be made to feel as bad as possible." And that's terrible.

You can say the same thing about a lot of prison policies.

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Jennifer
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by Jennifer » 15 Feb 2018, 23:36

Jadagul wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 16:50
dead_elvis wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 11:51
Goddamnit, this is just plain mean spirited... I'm just really troubled by this trend of not just playing with immigration numbers and visas and official immigration policy but of mean spiritedness on a personal level. Like with the blanket travel ban interfering with cultural and scientific co-operation with Officially Disfavored Foreigners, it seems designed to try and create a zeitgeist of xenophobia by denying even simple harmless humanitarian impulses. Even if you're here legally, they just want to make sure you don't forget that they will find a way to fuck with you over even the most harmless-to-them-but-crucial-to-you things.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/new ... story.html
Right.

There's a reasonable argument to be made for reducing immigration levels. I don't believe it, but it's not insane or anything.

But there seems to be a policy of, basically, "fuck the Mexicans, they should be made to feel as bad as possible." And that's terrible.

You can say the same thing about a lot of prison policies.
And replacing SNAP with a "HArvest Box," and pretty much everything ICE Has been doing.... cruelty in general has been on the rise in this country's policies, it seems. (Not exclusivey due to Trump, though he certainly turned it up to 11.)
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Re: If We Build It, They'll Probably Still Come

Post by dhex » 17 Feb 2018, 13:13

"I do wear my New Balance tennis shoes when I'm wearing cargo shorts, though, because truth in advertising." - lunch

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