The Abortion Thread

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the innominate one
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by the innominate one » 08 Dec 2017, 16:23

This is ominous.

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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 08 Dec 2017, 16:31

Great; after the investigate the already-discredited claim of PP selling baby parts, maybe they can investigate the worldwide Jewish conspiracy, and uncover which members of the US government are filling the atmosphere with mind-controlling "chemtrails."
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Sandy » 08 Dec 2017, 17:01

Jennifer wrote:
08 Dec 2017, 16:31
Great; after the investigate the already-discredited claim of PP selling baby parts, maybe they can investigate the worldwide Jewish conspiracy, and uncover which members of the US government are filling the atmosphere with mind-controlling "chemtrails."
Didn't they already go on Alex Jones?
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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 12 Dec 2017, 12:00

A doctor explains how his Christianity inspired him to help women in need of abortions, and asks the obvious question which forced-birth advocates scrupulously avoid answering or even admitting to: "Even if I conceded that a fetus is a person on par with the woman carrying it, the problem still remains: How do you give rights to a fetus, to a person that's inside of a person, without taking rights from the person that the person is inside of?"

http://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2017/0 ... n-abortion
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Sandy » 12 Dec 2017, 12:35

Jennifer wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 12:00
"Even if I conceded that a fetus is a person on par with the woman carrying it, the problem still remains: How do you give rights to a fetus, to a person that's inside of a person, without taking rights from the person that the person is inside of?"
My exact problem with positive rights.
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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 12 Dec 2017, 12:42

Sandy wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 12:35
Jennifer wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 12:00
"Even if I conceded that a fetus is a person on par with the woman carrying it, the problem still remains: How do you give rights to a fetus, to a person that's inside of a person, without taking rights from the person that the person is inside of?"
My exact problem with positive rights.
Problem is, a lot of forced-birth advocates also claim to oppose positive rights-- except in this one case. Force the woman to give birth against her will, but don't offer food stamps to keep the baby fed once it's born. When Rubio was still a GOP primary candidate he said he'd like to outlaw abortion even for rape victims; unfortunately nobody I saw bothered to ask the followup question "If you want the state to force women to carry and birth their rapists' progeny, would you at least be willing to have the state cover her medical costs and lost wages, or is that too much like 'socialism' for your taste?"
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Dangerman » 13 Dec 2017, 12:30

The State will probably cover or mitigate her medical expenses if she qualifies for TANF, and she will qualify for a one time, one year exemption from participating in mandatory work readiness activities, which means a new mother can get cash and food support for almost nothing in return. If she needs a HS Diploma or GED, and is under 20 years, she can go to school during this time, or seek employment with the support of TANF programs. This support can last up to 18 months after employment, and includes childcare subsidies, transportation reimbursements, and materials for school or work.

Just so we're clear.

Edit: None, not one, of the young single pregnant female TANF recipients whom I've worked with have expressed concern over the cost of birth. They're much more concerned about caring for a child for her next 20 years, and keeping the lights and heat on at home this week.

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 13 Dec 2017, 15:17

Ohio is trying to make it illegal to abort fetuses with Down syndrome.

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Sandy » 14 Dec 2017, 11:56

Politics are so fucked I could see supporters on both sides of the culture war.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 14 Dec 2017, 12:03

Sandy wrote:
14 Dec 2017, 11:56
Politics are so fucked I could see supporters on both sides of the culture war.
In the unlikely event someone were to try making it mandatory for women carrying a Down fetus to get an abortion, I would vociferously oppose that for obvious "pro-choice" reasons. But this nonsense is just vile. "You're allowed to get an abortion [at least for now, we're doing our best to change that] UNLESS the fetus has a birth defect. And of course, for all that we 'pro-lifers' want to force you to birth the kid, we are very opposed to giving you any sort of assistance afterwards -- soon as the cord is cut, if you need any help we'll lecture you on the importance of bootstrappiness. Down syndrome is a pre-existing condition, of course, so don't even THINK about asking your medical insurance to cover the poor kid's extra healthcare costs. And don't ask the taxpayers to help you, either."
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Sandy » 14 Dec 2017, 12:12

The other side would be that aborting Down's syndrome babies is ableism. They already make that argument for deaf kids and cochlear implants.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 14 Dec 2017, 12:16

Sandy wrote:
14 Dec 2017, 12:12
The other side would be that aborting Down's syndrome babies is ableism.
Which would make sense to me ONLY if abortion were banned in all other instances UNLESS the fetus has Down's.
They already make that argument for deaf kids and cochlear implants.
Yeah, I know. And I've harshly criticized that before: "No child of MINE will grow up healthy and happy if I have anything to say about it, by Zod!"

If none of these assholes have yet complained how "ableist" it is to give prosthetic limbs to people lacking two full legs, I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

EDIT: Fixed HTML errors
Last edited by Jennifer on 14 Dec 2017, 12:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Sandy » 14 Dec 2017, 12:25

If you really want to boggle, there's the trans-disabled people. Though at least their whole thing is self-inflicted, so no real libertarian objections to it. Unless I'm asked to pay for it.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by tr0g » 14 Dec 2017, 12:42

Sandy wrote:
14 Dec 2017, 12:25
If you really want to boggle, there's the trans-disabled people. Though at least their whole thing is self-inflicted, so no real libertarian objections to it. Unless I'm asked to pay for it.
I dunno. I have concerns about letting crazy people mutilate themselves, but we're moving into a grey area where I have intuitions but no real answers.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 14 Dec 2017, 12:48

tr0g wrote:
14 Dec 2017, 12:42
Sandy wrote:
14 Dec 2017, 12:25
If you really want to boggle, there's the trans-disabled people. Though at least their whole thing is self-inflicted, so no real libertarian objections to it. Unless I'm asked to pay for it.
I dunno. I have concerns about letting crazy people mutilate themselves, but we're moving into a grey area where I have intuitions but no real answers.
Y'all talking about, for example, the people who want to have healthy limbs amputated? I feel very badly for those people, but it would be FAR worse, IMO, for such a person to say "I want my child's healthy limb amputated." And THOSE kind of people damned well need to be prevented from mutilating their kids, and I have no libertarian qualms about saying the government should step in to prevent it.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Aresen » 14 Dec 2017, 13:08

Sandy wrote:
14 Dec 2017, 12:12
The other side would be that aborting Down's syndrome babies is ableism. They already make that argument for deaf kids and cochlear implants.
My argument against the 'no cochlear implants' people is to posit the discovery of a hypothetical new sense - something like the magnetic compass certain migratory species have, for example - and a way to endow everyone with this sense by artificial means. Would they wish to deny everyone the new-found ability just so there was no 'ableism?'
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Sandy » 14 Dec 2017, 13:56

Aresen wrote:
14 Dec 2017, 13:08
Sandy wrote:
14 Dec 2017, 12:12
The other side would be that aborting Down's syndrome babies is ableism. They already make that argument for deaf kids and cochlear implants.
My argument against the 'no cochlear implants' people is to posit the discovery of a hypothetical new sense - something like the magnetic compass certain migratory species have, for example - and a way to endow everyone with this sense by artificial means. Would they wish to deny everyone the new-found ability just so there was no 'ableism?'
Yes I would like it and does Health Canada cover it?
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Aresen » 14 Dec 2017, 13:59

It's deemed experimental.

They attempted it on Justin Trudeau and found that he still had no sense of direction.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by tr0g » 14 Dec 2017, 14:18

Aresen wrote:
14 Dec 2017, 13:59
It's deemed experimental.

They attempted it on Justin Trudeau and found that he still had no sense of direction.
I thought he was like all politicians and instinctively moved in the direction of higher poll numbers.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by nicole » 21 Dec 2017, 12:36

Hard to say what's more offensive here, the overall reasoning or the euphemism "women who have experienced abortion"

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by the innominate one » 21 Dec 2017, 12:39

There's nothing traumatic about having to give birth to a child resulting from rape.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by nicole » 21 Dec 2017, 12:53

Pretty sure a pregnancy doesn't have to result from rape to be traumatic.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by the innominate one » 21 Dec 2017, 12:55

True, but the one in question did. Would also think rape-resulting pregnancy much more likely to be traumatic.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by nicole » 21 Dec 2017, 13:06

Of course, and the victim claimed exactly that at the time.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Warren » 21 Dec 2017, 14:51

nicole wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 12:36
Hard to say what's more offensive here, the overall reasoning or the euphemism "women who have experienced abortion"
The reasoning. The euphemism is not offensive.
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