The Abortion Thread

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Mo » 22 May 2019, 18:03

Shem wrote:
Mo wrote:
22 May 2019, 14:57
I could totally sign up to a “no abortions after brain waves (~20 weeks) detected except for life/health of the mother and severe abnormalities in the child” if it would lead to the end of this stupid debate.
I'd need free contraceptives added, but I'd take it otherwise.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by thoreau » 22 May 2019, 18:08

Free contraceptives should be part of any policy: Pro-choice, pro-life, whatever. Hell, they should be part of education policy, law enforcement policy, foreign policy, environmental policy, fiscal policy, monetary policy, you name it.

Ditto for free vasectomies and tubal ligations.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Hugh Akston » 22 May 2019, 18:14

Most people are fine with abortions up to the middle of the second trimester and get increasingly squirky about them after that. That's why "abortions for some, miniature American flags for others" is the right approach, but the policy conversation keeps getting hijacked by extremists on either side.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by lunchstealer » 22 May 2019, 18:59

Hugh Akston wrote:
22 May 2019, 18:14
Most people are fine with abortions up to the middle of the second trimester and get increasingly squirky about them after that. That's why "abortions for some, miniature American flags for others" is the right approach, but the policy conversation keeps getting hijacked by extremists on either side.
I may be in a bubble, but are there really that many extremists on the abortion-on-demand-after-24-weeks side of things? The screaming I hear about late-term abortions is mostly surrounding stopping laws by anti-abortion extremists to ban certain procedures that are already only or damn near only used for life/health of the mother. I really never see choice extremists hollering for government funded 35-week elective abortions.

Is this one of those cases of false balance, where we just assume that there are wingnuts on both sides?
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Aresen » 22 May 2019, 19:28

For certain defective individuals, I would be willing to extend the time for abortion up to the 300th trimester.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Aresen » 22 May 2019, 19:36

thoreau wrote:
22 May 2019, 18:08
Free contraceptives should be part of any policy: Pro-choice, pro-life, whatever. Hell, they should be part of education policy, law enforcement policy, foreign policy, environmental policy, fiscal policy, monetary policy, you name it.
I am willing to bet that absolutely none of these guys would support free contraceptives:

Image

In fact, I would not be surprised if the majority wanted to ban over-the-counter contraceptives.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 22 May 2019, 19:40

I'd be willing to bet at least half of their mothers would, though.

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 22 May 2019, 20:04

lunchstealer wrote:
22 May 2019, 18:59
I may be in a bubble, but are there really that many extremists on the abortion-on-demand-after-24-weeks side of things? The screaming I hear about late-term abortions is mostly surrounding stopping laws by anti-abortion extremists to ban certain procedures that are already only or damn near only used for life/health of the mother. I really never see choice extremists hollering for government funded 35-week elective abortions.

Is this one of those cases of false balance, where we just assume that there are wingnuts on both sides?
Given that I've been seeing people push the idea that the current situation has nothing to do with Team Red political dominance and the expectation of a anti-Roe USSC, but is in fact due to some sort of backlash against the pro-choice side supporting on-demand late-term abortions?

I think it's flatly made-the-fuck-up.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 22 May 2019, 20:35

I'm not a neutral observer, but I don't think it's unfair to say that following Row and Casey, the abortion rights side has correctly taken every attempt by abortion opponents to restrict the legal availability of abortion in any way as a step toward outlawing abortion outright and has, in turn, felt compelled to argue that abortions under virtually any circumstances should be legally protected. Any concession by either side has been pounced on by the other for maximum rhetorical mileage, so the debate finally reached a reductio ad absurdum where neither side is willing to concede anything at all.

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by thoreau » 22 May 2019, 20:48

Aresen wrote:
22 May 2019, 19:36
thoreau wrote:
22 May 2019, 18:08
Free contraceptives should be part of any policy: Pro-choice, pro-life, whatever. Hell, they should be part of education policy, law enforcement policy, foreign policy, environmental policy, fiscal policy, monetary policy, you name it.
I am willing to bet that absolutely none of these guys would support free contraceptives:

Image

In fact, I would not be surprised if the majority wanted to ban over-the-counter contraceptives.
I would support inventing a time machine to give free contraceptives to their parents.

(On a serious note, I think that taking hormonal contraceptive pills without a doctor's advice is a bad idea, since a lot of women experience side effects and can need several tries to find the right contraceptive. But my stance on prescriptions is that people should be free to take whatever meds they want without a doctor's advice, and the Rx from the doctor is for those who want insurance to pay for it, or want ot avail themselves of liability law in the event that something goes wrong. But for those who want to put chemicals into their bodies without professional advice, hey, it's allegedly a free country.)

(The biggest downside of my plan is that idiots will be more likely to have ineffective contraception, which is the exact opposite of the desired outcome.)
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by thoreau » 22 May 2019, 20:51

Eric the .5b wrote:
22 May 2019, 20:04
Given that I've been seeing people push the idea that the current situation has nothing to do with Team Red political dominance and the expectation of a anti-Roe USSC, but is in fact due to some sort of backlash against the pro-choice side supporting on-demand late-term abortions?
Those people are idiots. If Merrick Garland had been confirmed, or if Trump had nominated Judge Judy instead of Brett Kavanaugh, nobody would be generating these test cases passing these laws.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 22 May 2019, 21:10

thoreau wrote:
22 May 2019, 20:51
Eric the .5b wrote:
22 May 2019, 20:04
Given that I've been seeing people push the idea that the current situation has nothing to do with Team Red political dominance and the expectation of a anti-Roe USSC, but is in fact due to some sort of backlash against the pro-choice side supporting on-demand late-term abortions?
Those people are idiots. If Merrick Garland had been confirmed, or if Trump had nominated Judge Judy instead of Brett Kavanaugh, nobody would be generating these test cases passing these laws.
Sufficiently advanced idiots that are hard to tell apart from liars. And vice-versa.

The part that really gets me is that the entire late-term abortion controversy came out of the anti-choice side lying their asses off about how often those procedures actually happened and exactly when and why they were used. Then, years later, they dust those lies off and use them as evidence for how crazy and extreme the pro-choice side is.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Shem » 22 May 2019, 21:22

thoreau wrote:
22 May 2019, 20:48
On a serious note, I think that taking hormonal contraceptive pills without a doctor's advice is a bad idea, since a lot of women experience side effects and can need several tries to find the right contraceptive.
The same can be said of allergy pills. You can still get Claritin over the counter.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by thoreau » 22 May 2019, 21:39

Shem wrote:
22 May 2019, 21:22
thoreau wrote:
22 May 2019, 20:48
On a serious note, I think that taking hormonal contraceptive pills without a doctor's advice is a bad idea, since a lot of women experience side effects and can need several tries to find the right contraceptive.
The same can be said of allergy pills. You can still get Claritin over the counter.
Like I said, I think contraceptive pills should be available OTC. I just think that most people should be more careful than they are with OTC meds. In my ideal world everything is OTC, but insurance coverage requires an Rx. You wanna self-medicate? Go for it. You want insurance to cover it? Work with somebody who allegedly knows something about this.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 22 May 2019, 23:15

thoreau wrote:
22 May 2019, 18:08
Free contraceptives should be part of any policy: Pro-choice, pro-life, whatever. Hell, they should be part of education policy, law enforcement policy, foreign policy, environmental policy, fiscal policy, monetary policy, you name it.

Ditto for free vasectomies and tubal ligations.
Image

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Aresen » 22 May 2019, 23:26

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
22 May 2019, 23:15
thoreau wrote:
22 May 2019, 18:08
Free contraceptives should be part of any policy: Pro-choice, pro-life, whatever. Hell, they should be part of education policy, law enforcement policy, foreign policy, environmental policy, fiscal policy, monetary policy, you name it.

Ditto for free vasectomies and tubal ligations.
Image
I'm stealing that.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Warren » 23 May 2019, 09:38

No true libertarian could abide free [anything]
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by nicole » 23 May 2019, 10:50

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Andrew » 23 May 2019, 12:27

Hmm.
Abortion bans[Governments applying force] violate the religious freedom of dissenters, nonbelievers and believers alike, by privileging one controversial doctrinal interpretation over others
I wonder if the author is willing to go that far, or if abortion is a special exception to Big Government knowing what's best for everyone.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by lunchstealer » 23 May 2019, 12:43

Andrew wrote:
23 May 2019, 12:27
Hmm.
Abortion bans[Governments applying force] violate the religious freedom of dissenters, nonbelievers and believers alike, by privileging one controversial doctrinal interpretation over others
I wonder if the author is willing to go that far, or if abortion is a special exception to Big Government knowing what's best for everyone.
Absolutely, as long as the violation of dissenter's freedom is based on religious doctrine that the author doesn't agree with.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Shem » 23 May 2019, 16:27

Andrew wrote:
23 May 2019, 12:27
Hmm.
Abortion bans[Governments applying force] violate the religious freedom of dissenters, nonbelievers and believers alike, by privileging one controversial doctrinal interpretation over others
I wonder if the author is willing to go that far, or if abortion is a special exception to Big Government knowing what's best for everyone.
Declining to make a law about something is "Big Government knowing what's best for everyone?"
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 23 May 2019, 18:31

Shem wrote:
23 May 2019, 16:27
Andrew wrote:
23 May 2019, 12:27
Hmm.
Abortion bans[Governments applying force] violate the religious freedom of dissenters, nonbelievers and believers alike, by privileging one controversial doctrinal interpretation over others
I wonder if the author is willing to go that far, or if abortion is a special exception to Big Government knowing what's best for everyone.
Declining to make a law about something is "Big Government knowing what's best for everyone?"
He just said the complete opposite of that. Abortion is the topic on which Blues abruptly shift gears and argue as if individual autonomy is paramount and regulations and restrictions are impositions that must be given a gimlet eye.

Or, put another way, within several inches of a functional uterus, Blues suddenly turn into libertarians.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by thoreau » 23 May 2019, 18:51

Eric the .5b wrote:
23 May 2019, 18:31
Or, put another way, within several inches of a functional uterus, Blues suddenly turn into libertarians.
If we could make everything about guns and uteri I think we could get both parties to turn libertarian.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Aresen » 27 May 2019, 23:54

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by JasonL » 28 May 2019, 14:19

As I mentioned upthread, I'm pro choice pretty much up to the date of delivery but would not have dramatic concerns about restrictions on late term abortions. I generally view the right to bodily autonomy as the paramount moral question in play and I tend the view the issue of personhood through the lens of self reflective mental spaces rather than morphology or genetics. I'm also generally opposed to the argument that a potential for future personhood should matter very much. A non entity future person doesn't in my view have moral standing. A person does.

That said, here is the problem I find most compelling going in the other direction:

If a pregnant woman engages in behavior that it high risk to a fetus, say using heroin in quantity, carries the child to term, there are adverse complications affecting that child such as a cognitive disorder - does the child have any remedy later in life? Is that child abuse or anything at all? Maybe consider both a moral and a legal standpoint - is this behavior wrong, should it be punished under the law.

If the same exact fact pattern exists but instead of carrying to term the mother aborts a week before due date, if there were moral or legal implications - did she do nothing wrong because the moral wrong was to actually have the child?

I find that set of conditions troubling.

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