The Abortion Thread

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nicole
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by nicole » 21 Dec 2017, 14:54

Warren wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 14:51
nicole wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 12:36
Hard to say what's more offensive here, the overall reasoning or the euphemism "women who have experienced abortion"
The reasoning. The euphemism is not offensive.
Well, I’m offended by it. Women affirmatively choose to terminate pregnancies. It doesn’t just happen to them.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by lunchstealer » 21 Dec 2017, 19:36

nicole wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 14:54
Warren wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 14:51
nicole wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 12:36
Hard to say what's more offensive here, the overall reasoning or the euphemism "women who have experienced abortion"
The reasoning. The euphemism is not offensive.
Well, I’m offended by it. Women affirmatively choose to terminate pregnancies. It doesn’t just happen to them.
In many ways, women have just as much agency as men.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Warren » 21 Dec 2017, 19:40

nicole wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 14:54
Warren wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 14:51
nicole wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 12:36
Hard to say what's more offensive here, the overall reasoning or the euphemism "women who have experienced abortion"
The reasoning. The euphemism is not offensive.
Well, I’m offended by it. Women affirmatively choose to terminate pregnancies. It doesn’t just happen to them.
They chose it, and then they experience it. The euphemism is awkward but it doesn't rob women of agency any more than "sexually experienced" or "experience Disneyland" suggest rape or unintentional corporatism. If you're offended, it's because you want to be offended.
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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 21 Dec 2017, 21:27

Warren wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 19:40
nicole wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 14:54
Warren wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 14:51
nicole wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 12:36
Hard to say what's more offensive here, the overall reasoning or the euphemism "women who have experienced abortion"
The reasoning. The euphemism is not offensive.
Well, I’m offended by it. Women affirmatively choose to terminate pregnancies. It doesn’t just happen to them.
They chose it, and then they experience it. The euphemism is awkward but it doesn't rob women of agency any more than "sexually experienced" or "experience Disneyland" suggest rape or unintentional corporatism. If you're offended, it's because you want to be offended.
Maybe in a neutral context, but in the context of an attempt to legally force a pregnant underage rape victim to bear her rapists' offspring after she made it clear she doesn't want to, I agree with Nicole that it's pretty offensive.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 21 Dec 2017, 21:30

Warren wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 14:51
nicole wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 12:36
Hard to say what's more offensive here, the overall reasoning or the euphemism "women who have experienced abortion"
The reasoning. The euphemism is not offensive.
Women choose to have abortions. You say "women who have had abortions." Women "who have experienced abortions" is something either cooked up by a space alien or someone trying to come up with rhetoric painting women as victims of abortion.

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 24 Mar 2018, 14:33

Kevin Williamson thinks abortion should be treated as premeditated homicide, and women who get abortions should be hanged.

Calling for a quarter of all American women to be executed is not misogynistic, though. Of course not. It's proof of Williamson's deep and abiding respect for life.

https://rewire.news/article/2014/09/30/ ... abortions/
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Mo » 24 Mar 2018, 15:40

But according to the right, no one wants to treat the mothers as murderers.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 24 Mar 2018, 16:04

Meanwhile, in Paraguay, a 14-year-old rape victim who was forced to birth her rapists' offspring by her country's strict anti-abortion laws died in childbirth.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... ving-birth
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by thoreau » 24 Mar 2018, 17:29


Jennifer wrote:her rapists' offspring
It appears that there was only one rapist, so you should use the singular possessive, not the plural possessive.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Sandy » 25 Mar 2018, 00:52

thoreau wrote:
Jennifer wrote:her rapists' offspring
It appears that there was only one rapist, so you should use the singular possessive, not the plural possessive.
A gross perversion of justice like that is too large for just one father.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by thoreau » 25 Mar 2018, 01:22

Your post is poetic. It's the mayo on the delicious sandwich of fundie hypocrisy laid bare.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 27 Mar 2018, 15:16

Indiana passed a new law requiring any woman seeking medical or psychological treatment to be asked about her abortion history, with the info reported to the state. Medical professionals who fail to do this face fines and jail time.

Those anti-choicers who swear up and down "We're not motivated by hatred of sexuality OR the desire to control women; we just loves us some babbeez!!" all while excusing (or at best handwaving away) such incidents as this, or the 14-year-old rape victim forced by the government to die in childbirth... I add them to my list of people about whom I wonder "Are they knowingly lying or sincerely deluded?"
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by lunchstealer » 27 Mar 2018, 19:10

Jennifer wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 15:16
Indiana passed a new law requiring any woman seeking medical or psychological treatment to be asked about her abortion history, with the info reported to the state. Medical professionals who fail to do this face fines and jail time.

Those anti-choicers who swear up and down "We're not motivated by hatred of sexuality OR the desire to control women; we just loves us some babbeez!!" all while excusing (or at best handwaving away) such incidents as this, or the 14-year-old rape victim forced by the government to die in childbirth... I add them to my list of people about whom I wonder "Are they knowingly lying or sincerely deluded?"
The latter, if the latter can be interpreted as "They believe what they want to believe in the moment and don't give a moment's thought to what they do that completely contradicts what they want to believe."
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nicole
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by nicole » 27 Mar 2018, 19:52

Jennifer wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 15:16
Indiana passed a new law requiring any woman seeking medical or psychological treatment to be asked about her abortion history, with the info reported to the state. Medical professionals who fail to do this face fines and jail time.

Those anti-choicers who swear up and down "We're not motivated by hatred of sexuality OR the desire to control women; we just loves us some babbeez!!" all while excusing (or at best handwaving away) such incidents as this, or the 14-year-old rape victim forced by the government to die in childbirth... I add them to my list of people about whom I wonder "Are they knowingly lying or sincerely deluded?"
Tfw you extremely want people to lie about their medical history to their healthcare provider
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 27 Mar 2018, 19:56

Doc: Did you have an abortion?
Patient: Yes.
Doc: High five!

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Warren » 27 Mar 2018, 20:19

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 19:56
Doc: Did you have an abortion?
Patient: Yes.
Doc: High five!
Doc: Did you have an abortion?
Patient: Not an abortion.
Doc: High five!
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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 27 Mar 2018, 20:59

nicole wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 19:52
Jennifer wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 15:16
Indiana passed a new law requiring any woman seeking medical or psychological treatment to be asked about her abortion history, with the info reported to the state. Medical professionals who fail to do this face fines and jail time.

Those anti-choicers who swear up and down "We're not motivated by hatred of sexuality OR the desire to control women; we just loves us some babbeez!!" all while excusing (or at best handwaving away) such incidents as this, or the 14-year-old rape victim forced by the government to die in childbirth... I add them to my list of people about whom I wonder "Are they knowingly lying or sincerely deluded?"
Tfw you extremely want people to lie about their medical history to their healthcare provider
Not "people," Nicole; "slutty baby murderers."
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Andrew » 27 Mar 2018, 23:30

I wonder what the overlap is between people outraged about this law who want the CDC to do gun stats as a public health measure. And vice versa.
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nicole
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by nicole » 28 Mar 2018, 00:00

FWIW the news story I read said docs only have to ask if you’re seeking treatment for something that could be a complication of abortion.

Of course, that includes depression.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Warren » 28 Mar 2018, 01:07

nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 00:00
FWIW the news story I read said docs only have to ask if you’re seeking treatment for something that could be a complication of abortion.

Of course, that includes depression.
Doctors should ask patients about their history when trying to diagnose their present condition. There needn't be a law for that. Neither should such practice raise eyebrows. Requiring doctors to report patient histories to the state is a shocking violation of long established privileged communication.

Devil/details disclaimer. If the headline is right, I don't see any court given the opportunity failing to strike it down.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by nicole » 28 Mar 2018, 03:11

Warren wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 01:07
nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 00:00
FWIW the news story I read said docs only have to ask if you’re seeking treatment for something that could be a complication of abortion.

Of course, that includes depression.
Doctors should ask patients about their history when trying to diagnose their present condition. There needn't be a law for that. Neither should such practice raise eyebrows. Requiring doctors to report patient histories to the state is a shocking violation of long established privileged communication.

Devil/details disclaimer. If the headline is right, I don't see any court given the opportunity failing to strike it down.
I kind of shrug at that. Doctors are already mandatory reporters for things like child abuse and assault. They’re pretty much agents of the state.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Warren » 28 Mar 2018, 09:54

nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 03:11
Warren wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 01:07
nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 00:00
FWIW the news story I read said docs only have to ask if you’re seeking treatment for something that could be a complication of abortion.

Of course, that includes depression.
Doctors should ask patients about their history when trying to diagnose their present condition. There needn't be a law for that. Neither should such practice raise eyebrows. Requiring doctors to report patient histories to the state is a shocking violation of long established privileged communication.

Devil/details disclaimer. If the headline is right, I don't see any court given the opportunity failing to strike it down.
I kind of shrug at that. Doctors are already mandatory reporters for things like child abuse and assault. They’re pretty much agents of the state.
Then is there even a problem here?
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nicole
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by nicole » 28 Mar 2018, 12:00

Warren wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 09:54
nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 03:11
Warren wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 01:07
nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 00:00
FWIW the news story I read said docs only have to ask if you’re seeking treatment for something that could be a complication of abortion.

Of course, that includes depression.
Doctors should ask patients about their history when trying to diagnose their present condition. There needn't be a law for that. Neither should such practice raise eyebrows. Requiring doctors to report patient histories to the state is a shocking violation of long established privileged communication.

Devil/details disclaimer. If the headline is right, I don't see any court given the opportunity failing to strike it down.
I kind of shrug at that. Doctors are already mandatory reporters for things like child abuse and assault. They’re pretty much agents of the state.
Then is there even a problem here?
I mean, doctors are a problem.

My “FWIW” post limited the scope of what Jennifer had suggested, but also noted that it was ridiculous for doctors to ask women who seek treatment for depression if they’d had an abortion. But it’s not clear if that’s actually required either, based on the reporting I read.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by lunchstealer » 28 Mar 2018, 12:05

nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 03:11
Warren wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 01:07
nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 00:00
FWIW the news story I read said docs only have to ask if you’re seeking treatment for something that could be a complication of abortion.

Of course, that includes depression.
Doctors should ask patients about their history when trying to diagnose their present condition. There needn't be a law for that. Neither should such practice raise eyebrows. Requiring doctors to report patient histories to the state is a shocking violation of long established privileged communication.

Devil/details disclaimer. If the headline is right, I don't see any court given the opportunity failing to strike it down.
I kind of shrug at that. Doctors are already mandatory reporters for things like child abuse and assault. They’re pretty much agents of the state.
They are obligated to report a crime if they find out about it. Therapists and other mental health providers typically tell you this at the beginning of treatment.

This is more like questions about whether patients have guns in the house, but I don't know of any requirements that those results be reported to the feds or to state governments.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Warren » 28 Mar 2018, 12:48

lunchstealer wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 12:05
They are obligated to report a crime if they find out about it. Therapists and other mental health providers typically tell you this at the beginning of treatment.

This is more like questions about whether patients have guns in the house, but I don't know of any requirements that those results be reported to the feds or to state governments.
Agree. I can see a bright line between crime and everything else.
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