The Abortion Thread

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nicole
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by nicole » 28 May 2019, 14:58

JasonL wrote:
28 May 2019, 14:19
As I mentioned upthread, I'm pro choice pretty much up to the date of delivery but would not have dramatic concerns about restrictions on late term abortions. I generally view the right to bodily autonomy as the paramount moral question in play and I tend the view the issue of personhood through the lens of self reflective mental spaces rather than morphology or genetics. I'm also generally opposed to the argument that a potential for future personhood should matter very much. A non entity future person doesn't in my view have moral standing. A person does.

That said, here is the problem I find most compelling going in the other direction:

If a pregnant woman engages in behavior that it high risk to a fetus, say using heroin in quantity, carries the child to term, there are adverse complications affecting that child such as a cognitive disorder - does the child have any remedy later in life? Is that child abuse or anything at all? Maybe consider both a moral and a legal standpoint - is this behavior wrong, should it be punished under the law.

If the same exact fact pattern exists but instead of carrying to term the mother aborts a week before due date, if there were moral or legal implications - did she do nothing wrong because the moral wrong was to actually have the child?

I find that set of conditions troubling.
I think this is an area where lots of people think there's a morally relevant difference between what the pregnant woman/person does while the fetus exists vs. before it has been conceived, but I don't really think that. E.g., the question "is it okay to make your fetus stupid by taking drugs?" doesn't actually seem to me like it should be different from "is it okay to make your fetus stupid by being stupid and conceiving it with a stupid father?" The result is the same. "Is it okay to make your fetus unhealthy by drinking?" vs "is it okay to make your fetus unhealthy by having a hereditary disease and still deciding to have bio-children?"
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 29 May 2019, 14:20

As the philosopher Ron White said, you can't fix stupid. And we'll never rid the world of stupid people because there are more of them and they breed more than non-stupid people. More importantly in this context, the law can't (and even if it could, probably shouldn't try to) solve all the various ways parents (who just for the sake of this particular topic I'm stipulating includes pregnant women and the men who impregnated them) can and will be bad parents. Nor can we systematize in a way that will be rationally defensible all the ways the law now regards child abuse and neglect.

In many states, if an unborn but viable child is harmed or killed by a third party attacker, that third party can be held criminally guilty and civilly liable for his acts. I don't think many people think that's wrong. I don't, in any case. But the range of possibilities of whatever constitutes optimal prenatal care and responsible behavior to the unintentional or even intentional behavior of the pregnant mother that is or could be harmful to the unborn is probably endless. For the most part, I think social norms and mores are the preferable method of encouraging pregnant women who do want to see their unborn through to birth to act responsibly, e.g., not smoke or drink alcohol or use recreational drugs, to eat a healthy diet, seek appropriate medical care, etc. We all know that's going to have no effect on the people Nicole are talking about, but I think it's the right approach and far better than dangling the threat of some sort of legal sanctions over women.

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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 29 May 2019, 15:23

Clarence Thomas compares birth control and abortion to Nazi eugenics. Because "letting a woman choose whether to be a mother or not" is JUST LIKE "the state murdering people en masse."

Remember when Thomas wrote "I’ll put an end to the idea that a woman’s body belongs to her… the practice of abortion shall be exterminated with a strong hand"? Whoops, my bad -- 'twas actually HITLER who wrote that. And the forced-birthers think he had the right idea.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 07 Jun 2019, 07:07


@kazweida wrote:Missouri state officials are requiring physicians to perform a pelvic exam at least 72 hours before every abortion, a medically unnecessary and invasive procedure doctors say is intended to harass and shame women.
@AmyAddante wrote: Today I was forced by the state of Missouri to perform an unnecessary pelvic exam on a patient terminating her pregnancy for a fetal anomaly. She is heartbroken over her situation and I was forced to do an invasive, uncomfortable exam. It broke me as a physician to do this to her
The important thing is, that sex-havin' slut is being punished.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » Yesterday, 16:42

In Alabama, rape victims are not allowed to abort their rapists' progeny, but rapists ARE granted paternal rights. Despite everything, it is still somehow considered crass to suggest these abortion bans are motivated by "deep-seated issues with women" as opposed to, y'know, love of da babeez.

https://www.knoe.com/content/news/Alaba ... 95642.html

"Alabama court forces rape survivor to allow rapist to have visitation with children"
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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dead_elvis
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by dead_elvis » Yesterday, 17:17

Truly horrifying.
"Never forget: a war on undocumented immigrants by necessity is a war on all of our freedoms of association and movement."

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