The Abortion Thread

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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 15 May 2019, 17:31

Aresen wrote:
15 May 2019, 17:07
What are the odds that at least one of these 25 creeps has procured an abortion for a mistress or daughter carrying an 'inconvenient' fetus?
Damned-near guaranteed.
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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 15 May 2019, 17:33

The hell of it is, it's still illegal to harvest organs from a dead body without that person's consent. If only the rights of living women were respected as much as the rights of corpses.
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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 15 May 2019, 18:03

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Mo
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Mo » 16 May 2019, 10:51

Now MO is making all abortion illegal and no rape or incest exemptions. If the Blues were smart, they would lay off abortion laws and make 2020 a referendum on making abortion illegal everywhere all the time.
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JD
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by JD » 16 May 2019, 12:28

Jennifer wrote:
15 May 2019, 15:40
Under the new law Alabama passed, a rape victim who gets an abortion, or the doctor who performs it, will face a MUCH longer prison sentence than the actual rapist.
And, along similar lines, it seems like you get a longer prison term for performing an abortion than you would if you'd actually waited until the infant was born and then killed it...
Beep boop, you silly humans.

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thoreau
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by thoreau » 16 May 2019, 13:11

JD wrote:
16 May 2019, 12:28
Jennifer wrote:
15 May 2019, 15:40
Under the new law Alabama passed, a rape victim who gets an abortion, or the doctor who performs it, will face a MUCH longer prison sentence than the actual rapist.
And, along similar lines, it seems like you get a longer prison term for performing an abortion than you would if you'd actually waited until the infant was born and then killed it...
Quite a dilemma for doctors who want to minimize the time they spend as prisoners...
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 16 May 2019, 14:22

Missouri Senate just voted to ban abortion after two months.

I saw on Twitter, but have not confirmed for myself, that every state which has passed one of these anti-woman "pro-life" bills has higher-than-average rates of maternal mortality, infant mortality, or both.

But it's long-since been established that "respect for life" or "love of babeez" isn't what's motivating these people; those are just the dog whistles they blow.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by JasonL » 16 May 2019, 15:25

I think this is a political disaster for elephants outside of those states and one or two others. I think pew has something like 7/10 respondents oppose overturn and during the Kavanaugh thing a WSJ poll had it higher than that. This is not a thing like guns where people notionally support greater gun control when polled but don't viscerally feel threatened by it. The politics sounds similar on the surface but you are messing with something entirely different here.

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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 16 May 2019, 15:27

JasonL wrote:
16 May 2019, 15:25
The politics sounds similar on the surface but you are messing with something entirely different here.
Especially, IMO, when there's no dearth of real, non-hypothetical worst-case examples like "Behold, a pregnant 11-year-old rape victim whom the state of Ohio is trying to force to bear her rapist's baby."
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JasonL
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by JasonL » 16 May 2019, 15:28

Right - there's only terrible politics and imagery. You'd better get ALL of the true believers out to vote because you lost 51% of everyone else

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 16 May 2019, 15:34

If the entire forced-birth movement had been taken over by deep-cover pro-choice secret agents whose mission was "make the forced-birth movement look as cruel and ignorant as possible," they'd be hard-pressed to do better than the actual forced-birthers have done. Of all the rape victims to use as a test case to force into becoming the rapist's babymama ... yeah, an adult victim would be cruel enough, but using a pre-teen girl nets you orders of magnitude more cruelty points. Kudos, deep-cover pro-choice agents! You'll find a little something extra in your next paycheck. And requiring ectopic pregnancies -- which I think are guaranteed unviable to the fetus and fatal to the mother if left alone -- to be saved via a medical process that doesn't even exist and can't be done .... these hypothetical deep-cover agents of mine only passed THAT clause because they figure "Before getting an abortion, each woman must levitate three feet off the ground while making 'Walk Like An Egyptian'-style arm movements" is a tad too ridiculous even for them.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 16 May 2019, 17:14

Jennifer wrote:
16 May 2019, 15:34
If the entire forced-birth movement had been taken over by deep-cover pro-choice secret agents whose mission was "make the forced-birth movement look as cruel and ignorant as possible," they'd be hard-pressed to do better than the actual forced-birthers have done.
*thinks hard* Maybe if they went back to shooting abortion providers and maybe started gunning for patients. Short of that, though, I can't really think of other ways.

I would laugh my ass off (half in relief) if Team Red managed to push such terrible cases to the USSC that even Kavanaugh balked on them.

(Not that I"m sure that's any more likely than my little Jan 20, 2017 fantasy. In that one, after being sworn in, Donald Trump devotes his inauguration speech to an increasingly disdainful and disgusted litany of all the shitty and unconscionable public things he did during his campaign...and how he still won. Then Pence walks up and says, "But what do you call that, Donald?", to which Trump smiles and answers, "I call it, 'The Aristocrats'!" In the moment of shock, they say, "Thank you, American, and we resign," take one bow, and then walk off with shit-eating grins...)
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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 16 May 2019, 17:25

Eric the .5b wrote:
16 May 2019, 17:14
Jennifer wrote:
16 May 2019, 15:34
If the entire forced-birth movement had been taken over by deep-cover pro-choice secret agents whose mission was "make the forced-birth movement look as cruel and ignorant as possible," they'd be hard-pressed to do better than the actual forced-birthers have done.
*thinks hard* Maybe if they went back to shooting abortion providers and maybe started gunning for patients. Short of that, though, I can't really think of other ways.

I would laugh my ass off (half in relief) if Team Red managed to push such terrible cases to the USSC that even Kavanaugh balked on them.

(Not that I"m sure that's any more likely than my little Jan 20, 2017 fantasy. In that one, after being sworn in, Donald Trump devotes his inauguration speech to an increasingly disdainful and disgusted litany of all the shitty and unconscionable public things he did during his campaign...and how he still won. Then Pence walks up and says, "But what do you call that, Donald?", to which Trump smiles and answers, "I call it, 'The Aristocrats'!" In the moment of shock, they say, "Thank you, American, and we resign," take one bow, and then walk off with shit-eating grins...)
Reminds me of something I posted on Facebook a day or two after the election:
Sarah Palin suggested as a possible Secretary of the Interior, Joe Arpaio for Homeland Security, a proposed trade war with China that would implode the Chinese economy and drag the world economy down with it ... in light of all this, PLUS the generally liberal viewpoints he espoused while chumming around with the Clintons in the 1990s, then if I thought Trump were smart and subtle enough to pull it off, I'd almost think he's perpetrating a GIGANTIC screw-you troll prank on the far right: "You nutjobs think YOU'RE the ones best qualified to steer this clown car we call a country? Fine, dumbasses: lemme hand you the wheel and watch you crash. Lulz."
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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 16 May 2019, 17:31

But the sheer cruelty and harshness of the recent spat of anti-choice bills seriously makes me wonder just how out-of-touch their sponsors and signers are. Remember, after Dylann Roof's murders, when there was a reckoning with the Confederate flag and whether it's appropriate for state governments to honor it? And I remember at one of those "Heritage not Hate" protests -- IIRC protesting South Carolina's plan to FINALLY quit flying the Confederate flag at the state capitol -- a bunch of robed Klansmen showed up at the protest, and I remember wondering "Do you guys seriously think your presence is HELPING your cause, and making it EASIER for people to swallow your 'Ain't nothin' racist 'bout THIS flag!' bullshit?"
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Aresen
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Aresen » 16 May 2019, 17:45

Eric the .5b wrote:
16 May 2019, 17:14
Jennifer wrote:
16 May 2019, 15:34
If the entire forced-birth movement had been taken over by deep-cover pro-choice secret agents whose mission was "make the forced-birth movement look as cruel and ignorant as possible," they'd be hard-pressed to do better than the actual forced-birthers have done.
*thinks hard* Maybe if they went back to shooting abortion providers and maybe started gunning for patients. Short of that, though, I can't really think of other ways.

I would laugh my ass off (half in relief) if Team Red managed to push such terrible cases to the USSC that even Kavanaugh balked on them.
I agree, though I think Roberts is more likely to defect. Also, given how harsh the recent laws are, I suspect the Court might find reason to strike them down without even referring to Roe v Wade.

Given the time it will take for the cases to flow to the SCOTUS, no challenge to the Alabama and Missouri laws is likely to make it onto the docket before Jan 21, 2021. If the Blues get lucky Nov 3, 2020 and win control of the Senate, I would not be surprised to see them try to Impeach Kavanaugh. (Of course, if Trump gets to pick a replacement for Breyer or Ginsburg, that might be moot.)
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by thoreau » 16 May 2019, 17:47

If Trump gets to pick a replacement for Breyer or Ginsburg then I expect massive numbers of Blues to die of heart attacks, their last words being "McKaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahnell!"
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 16 May 2019, 17:55

If Trump gets to pick a replacement for Breyer or Ginsburg, I fear the forced-birthers might well end up getting their way, at least in the fucked-up states.

Even assuming standard hateful no-abortion laws are allowed to stand, I'm very curious to see how the courts rule about my new home state of Georgia's declaration that if I get pregnant, they can prosecute me if I have an abortion anywhere in the world (and presumably investigate me on suspicion of murder should I miscarry).
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Number 6 » 16 May 2019, 18:19

I'm amused at the notion that there are anti-abortion laws so horrific that Justice Fratdouche won't support them.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Aresen » 16 May 2019, 18:42

Number 6 wrote:
16 May 2019, 18:19
I'm amused at the notion that there are anti-abortion laws so horrific that Justice Fratdouche won't support them.
There is a certain macabre humour in the notion.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Shem » 17 May 2019, 14:54

Aresen wrote:
16 May 2019, 17:45
Given the time it will take for the cases to flow to the SCOTUS, no challenge to the Alabama and Missouri laws is likely to make it onto the docket before Jan 21, 2021. If the Blues get lucky Nov 3, 2020 and win control of the Senate, I would not be surprised to see them try to Impeach Kavanaugh. (Of course, if Trump gets to pick a replacement for Breyer or Ginsburg, that might be moot.)
You might be surprised. If a plaintiff is willing to stipulate that a court can only possibly rule one way due to precedent, they can get through lower stages quite quickly. I believe that's how they got Janus v. AFSCME to the court in less than a year.
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thoreau
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by thoreau » 17 May 2019, 15:01

But would Alabama or Georgia or whatever other state stipulate that they are in violation of Roe vs. Wade and subsequent abortion cases? At the very least, they might want to argue that some particular provision within the law is consistent with some subsequent ruling that upheld some regulation or restriction. And do they REALLY want this to go to SCOTUS before November 2020?
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Kolohe » 17 May 2019, 15:13

I think they would argue that Roe & Casey are flawed and the fetus has some inalienable 14th amendment protections. I sort of agree with twitter that this probably won't fly (I think - I do think Trump being able to replace someone from the RBG wing would make it a very close call).

Otherwise they've tied themselves in knots between precedent and federalism grounds (i.e. trying to prosecute people that go out of state for the procedure).
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Kolohe » 17 May 2019, 15:14

Also, there is a very long history in the pro life movement of explicitly comparing abortion and abortion law to slavery and slavery law. In other words they're not just coming up with this 14th amendment argument on the fly.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 17 May 2019, 15:18

The argument I saw in Dahlia Lithwick's Slate article (which I devoutly hope is correct rather than wishful thinking on LIthwick's part) is that the most-recent bans will backfire against the forced-birthers, because previous bans did not technically "ban" abortion; the rules were portrayed as being for women's own good (a la "We're requiring a waiting period just in case the poor stupid dears don't know what they really want," "we're requiring painful transvaginal ultrasounds for some bullshit reason that sounds medical," etc.) Quite different from "No abortion for anyone, anywhere, doesn't matter if you've been raped, if that 11-year-old slut didn't want her stepfather to repeatedly rape her she shoulda thought of that before lookin' all sexy-like." They're not even PRETENDING to give a shit about women or girls.
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Jennifer
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jennifer » 17 May 2019, 15:20

Kolohe wrote:
17 May 2019, 15:14
Also, there is a very long history in the pro life movement of explicitly comparing abortion and abortion law to slavery and slavery law. In other words they're not just coming up with this 14th amendment argument on the fly.
Gotta love the cluelessness required to make "using state power to force women into labor against their will" become the ANTI-slavery analogy. Like a sex-flavored variant of those neo-Confederates who argue that "fighting to preserve the right to own slaves" is the PRO-liberty stance.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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