Orange is the new President

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Ellie
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Ellie »

Excuse any above errors; I had to compose this with voice-to-text because I'm trapped on my phone and have clumsy thumbs, and I'm too lazy to proofread it :lol:
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Ellie wrote: 22 Oct 2020, 20:25 I am sympathetic to the idea, at this point, that if you don't support Trump, and especially if you are in a group that feels like it will be harmed by him (e.g. someone with a pre-existing condition who is afraid of Obamacare getting done away with), that you would look at a loved one who supports Trump and say, "this isn't just a 'both sides have their merits' issue anymore, if you continue to support him there's something genuinely malicious about you, that makes me not want to have a relationship with you."

I get the impulse to feel that way. But it seems like a lot of people I know are suddenly acting on it in ways that I don't think are going to end well. I know three different people who have told parents or in laws that they won't get to see their grandkids anymore if the grandparents vote for trump. I know one woman, who admittedly has already been talking divorce with her husband, who explicitly told him if he didn't vote Biden she would leave him. And I have trans friend who wrote to his parents and said "if you support Trump you don't support me."

Is any of this really going to do any good? (In the case of my poor trans friend, his parents wrote back and said essentially, "we can clear that up, we don't support you.") If anything it's just going to feed into the "liberal cancel culture, persecuted conservatives" narrative that so many Trumpers have. I understand deciding to end a relationship because you're so bothered by someone's support of Trump, but only as a personal choice. Not trying to threaten THEM into changing THEIR behavior over it.
I would like to think I wouldn't play the 'agree with me or you're dead to me' card, but I find it difficult to see how I would have anything in common with a Trumper. (OTOH, I do have a friend who is antivaxx and a 'homeopathic practitioner.')
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer »

TBF I don't think anything is going to change the Trumpenproles' minds about anything, especially their woe-is-me-cancel-culture-trump-derangement-syndrome self-image, so I can't see that there's any harm in cutting them out, either. From a harm-to-the-body-politic-of-the-nation standpoint, they are lost. It literally doesn't matter how anyone treats them.

Now, from a family relations standpoint, maybe it's more harmful than good to cut them out. Probably not in the case of your trans friend. I think his parents were just waiting to cut him out.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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I'm pretty sure my stepdad is a Trumper. He watches Tucker (although my mom has put strict limits on his Fox News watching), and he'll make the occasional angry old white guy comment about something or other. But 99% of the time is is just a sweet old guy. He's kind and friendly and helpful and even as he grows enfeebled he's there for my mom. I don't discuss politics with him because he gets frothy about it.

Voting for Trump is not in itself a reason to cut people out of your life. Trump won't last forever, and people can change. Telling your trans child that you don't support them, on the other hand, is more than enough reason to cut them off,
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Ellie wrote: 22 Oct 2020, 20:25 I am sympathetic to the idea, at this point, that if you don't support Trump, and especially if you are in a group that feels like it will be harmed by him (e.g. someone with a pre-existing condition who is afraid of Obamacare getting done away with), that you would look at a loved one who supports Trump and say, "this isn't just a 'both sides have their merits' issue anymore, if you continue to support him there's something genuinely malicious about you, that makes me not want to have a relationship with you."
Let me offer another example (since "sick people supporting Obamacare" can be construed by certain people as "whiny gimme-addicts demanding free stuff and picking MY PERSONAL POCKET like it's MY fault they didn't save enough money to cover their medical costs" ad infinitum). What about, say, a gay person worried their marriage will be forcibly dissolved by the government (reminder: "end gay marriage" is STILL a plank in the official GOP 2020 platform), and they're hurt to know people will gladly vote for the guy who will appoint the anti-gay-marriage judges the Republicans want? Or if you're a Jewish or non-white person, bothered to know their loved ones will vote to re-elect the guy who appoints openly white-supremacist Nazi sympathizers (e.g. Stephen Miller) to high-ranking policy-writing positions?
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Ellie
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Jennifer wrote: 22 Oct 2020, 23:10 What about, say, a gay person worried their marriage will be forcibly dissolved by the government (reminder: "end gay marriage" is STILL a plank in the official GOP 2020 platform), and they're hurt to know people will gladly vote for the guy who will appoint the anti-gay-marriage judges the Republicans want? Or if you're a Jewish or non-white person, bothered to know their loved ones will vote to re-elect the guy who appoints openly white-supremacist Nazi sympathizers (e.g. Stephen Miller) to high-ranking policy-writing positions?
Like I said, I completely understand being upset by that. And even feeling like you need to end the relationship / cut off contact because you're not comfortable maintaining ties with that person.

But what I don't get is saying in advance, "Vote for Biden or I'm cutting you off!" "If you vote for Trump you're never seeing your grandkids again!"* I don't think it's going to change their vote; I certainly don't think it's going to change their minds. All it does is give them an opportunity to recast themselves as the victim and you as the irrational one spouting ultimatums.

*again, not hypothetical, I know three different people in my parenting Facebook group who made that threat this week (or, I guess, claimed they made that threat. I suppose every once in a great while someone might be slightly untruthful on the internet)
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Ellie wrote: 22 Oct 2020, 23:39
Jennifer wrote: 22 Oct 2020, 23:10 What about, say, a gay person worried their marriage will be forcibly dissolved by the government (reminder: "end gay marriage" is STILL a plank in the official GOP 2020 platform), and they're hurt to know people will gladly vote for the guy who will appoint the anti-gay-marriage judges the Republicans want? Or if you're a Jewish or non-white person, bothered to know their loved ones will vote to re-elect the guy who appoints openly white-supremacist Nazi sympathizers (e.g. Stephen Miller) to high-ranking policy-writing positions?
Like I said, I completely understand being upset by that. And even feeling like you need to end the relationship / cut off contact because you're not comfortable maintaining ties with that person.

But what I don't get is saying in advance, "Vote for Biden or I'm cutting you off!" "If you vote for Trump you're never seeing your grandkids again!"* I don't think it's going to change their vote; I certainly don't think it's going to change their minds. All it does is give them an opportunity to recast themselves as the victim and you as the irrational one spouting ultimatums.
The Trumpsters have been doing THAT all along. I'm not even being snarky when I say that. Remember after Unite the Right, all those assholes whining how people were calling them bigots JUST because they took part in a march where members were waving swastika flags and chanting English translations of literal Nazi slogans?

If we were having this exact same conversation four years ago, when people might still be able to say "well, he's just saying this to rile his base and be elected; I'm sure he'll mellow out if he's actually in office," that would be one thing. But at this point, Trump has an actual presidential track record, and most of that record is utterly and irredeemably vile.
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Ellie
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Re: Orange is the new President

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I guess I'm not sure what you're saying, and whether we're agreeing or disagreeing on this point. Do you think it's better / more productive to say to your father-in-law, "You had better vote for Biden if you want to see your grandkids again!" versus privately deciding you're going to stop visiting him and simply letting the relationship cool, or explaining "I'm hurt by our political differences so I'm choosing to give us some space"?
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer »

Ellie wrote: 23 Oct 2020, 01:07 I guess I'm not sure what you're saying, and whether we're agreeing or disagreeing on this point. Do you think it's better / more productive to say to your father-in-law, "You had better vote for Biden if you want to see your grandkids again!" versus privately deciding you're going to stop visiting him and simply letting the relationship cool, or explaining "I'm hurt by our political differences so I'm choosing to give us some space"?
I would not tell a hypothetical FIL out of the blue "If you vote Trump you'll never see the kids again" (though if this hypothetical guy is as bad as other "still going for Trump in October 2020"-types I know, I can definitely see him making me angry enough to blurt it out). Under no circumstances would I ghost him, though; I'd make certain he knows exactly why I no longer wish to associate with him: among other reasons, because I don't want my young and impressionable children exposed to that sort of shit -- if there's another big Nazi rally in this country 10 or 20 years down the road, I'd hope to raise my kids to abhor the marchers and what they stand for, rather than support them or at least think there are some "very fine people" to be found amongst their ranks.

So yeah, at this point I DO say "voting for Trump" qualifies as reason enough to cut ties with someone and keep your kids away from them as well. Then again, I also (for all my other faults) have never been the type to subscribe to the "personal comfort" theory of morality: "So long as he treats me decently, it's none of my concern he treats others." Anyone voting for Trump this go-round is at best one of those types, and at worst one who actively, sadistically approves of the evil he and his enablers have been doing.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Ellie wrote: 23 Oct 2020, 01:07 I guess I'm not sure what you're saying, and whether we're agreeing or disagreeing on this point. Do you think it's better / more productive to say to your father-in-law, "You had better vote for Biden if you want to see your grandkids again!" versus privately deciding you're going to stop visiting him and simply letting the relationship cool, or explaining "I'm hurt by our political differences so I'm choosing to give us some space"?
If you wanted to try to change someone's vote, then the first one is the only way that'll happen (it's the super unlikely outcome, but there's no chance with the others).

But honestly, I'm sure this kind of thing has happened at just about every election. Maybe there are more people now who have lost their rationality about it (because honestly, ultimatums about other people's votes are not rational) but it's not exactly new. And no, it doesn't do any good. But people make plenty of decisions that are not the best decisions they could make, especially when they've talked themselves into a major crisis.

I haven't seen a lot of people throwing around ultimatums, but I have seen a few oblique or direct threats (like that owner of a trailer park saying "If Trump wins, rents will be frozen for 2 years, but if Biden wins I'm going to double them).
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Ellie wrote: 22 Oct 2020, 23:39
Jennifer wrote: 22 Oct 2020, 23:10 What about, say, a gay person worried their marriage will be forcibly dissolved by the government (reminder: "end gay marriage" is STILL a plank in the official GOP 2020 platform), and they're hurt to know people will gladly vote for the guy who will appoint the anti-gay-marriage judges the Republicans want? Or if you're a Jewish or non-white person, bothered to know their loved ones will vote to re-elect the guy who appoints openly white-supremacist Nazi sympathizers (e.g. Stephen Miller) to high-ranking policy-writing positions?
Like I said, I completely understand being upset by that. And even feeling like you need to end the relationship / cut off contact because you're not comfortable maintaining ties with that person.

But what I don't get is saying in advance, "Vote for Biden or I'm cutting you off!" "If you vote for Trump you're never seeing your grandkids again!"* I don't think it's going to change their vote; I certainly don't think it's going to change their minds. All it does is give them an opportunity to recast themselves as the victim and you as the irrational one spouting ultimatums.

*again, not hypothetical, I know three different people in my parenting Facebook group who made that threat this week (or, I guess, claimed they made that threat. I suppose every once in a great while someone might be slightly untruthful on the internet)
This sort of family dynamic doesn't come out of nowhere. Insofar as it's an actual thing (rather than internet posers doing...internet posing) I suspect the people in question spent a good portion of their lives facing similar ultimatums from their parents. When you teach a kid that your love is conditional on their behavior, you can't really be surprised when they grow up and make their love conditional on your behavior. Nor should the cutters be surprised when their actions percolate out into their relationships if exercising this against non-family
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Re: Orange is the new President

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I've threatened to cutoff family for anti-vax stuff recently. I just can't handle that shit right now. I'm not a fucking sheep and don't get mad at me as to why you can't visit and see the family. Read the mood. Wait for better times.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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I'm torn because I just don't know how our society can move forward as a democracy if 40% look at the past 4 years and say "Yeah, that's cool." We can and should move forward as families, but I don't know how democracy can continue if people remain unashamed of what they supported.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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thoreau wrote: 23 Oct 2020, 12:43 I'm torn because I just don't know how our society can move forward as a democracy if 40% look at the past 4 years and say "Yeah, that's cool." We can and should move forward as families, but I don't know how democracy can continue if people remain unashamed of what they supported.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Hugh Akston wrote: 23 Oct 2020, 12:52
thoreau wrote: 23 Oct 2020, 12:43 I'm torn because I just don't know how our society can move forward as a democracy if 40% look at the past 4 years and say "Yeah, that's cool." We can and should move forward as families, but I don't know how democracy can continue if people remain unashamed of what they supported.
The defining trait of democracy is that it doesn't fucking matter what the minority thinks. As long as Sleepy Joe wins the election then the country moves forward without them.
Ah, yes, I remember when the majority voted for Donald the Orange in 2016.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Besides, the GOP isn't going away. There will always be a second party, that party will often win, and if a decisive bloc within that party likes Trump and other crazy shit then that party will be bugnuts crazy.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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The country is going forward without you.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer »

thoreau wrote: 23 Oct 2020, 13:12 Besides, the GOP isn't going away. There will always be a second party, that party will often win, and if a decisive bloc within that party likes Trump and other crazy shit then that party will be bugnuts crazy.
I am thinking/hoping that ultimately, this is the last-gasp equivalent of a candle flaring up before it burns out for good. Given American demographics, a political party based on the idea "Keep white people happy, and don't worry about the rest" isn't going to be feasible. Especially if the Supreme Court does overturn Roe v. Wade, and certain red states ban abortion: realistically speaking, women with enough money will be able to travel out of state and get abortions if needed; only the poor ones will be stuck. And the poor ones overwhelmingly belong to those demographics the alt-right GOP doesn't like.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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This was in my parenting group today. Odds that she actually changed her vote versus deciding to lie for the sake of some peace?
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b »

Ellie wrote: 24 Oct 2020, 22:04 This was in my parenting group today. Odds that she actually changed her vote versus deciding to lie for the sake of some peace?

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Kinda expected that to end, "...I'm out of the will."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem »

Ellie wrote: 24 Oct 2020, 22:04 This was in my parenting group today. Odds that she actually changed her vote versus deciding to lie for the sake of some peace?
Think I'd want to see some proof it actually happened before I placed any bets on the efficacy.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Ellie wrote: 24 Oct 2020, 22:04 This was in my parenting group today. Odds that she actually changed her vote versus deciding to lie for the sake of some peace?

20201025_210153.jpg
My sister definitely had a hand in motivating my dad to change his vote. First time he will be voting for a Dem POTUS in like 50 years.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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thoreau wrote: 23 Oct 2020, 12:43 I'm torn because I just don't know how our society can move forward as a democracy if 40% look at the past 4 years and say "Yeah, that's cool." We can and should move forward as families, but I don't know how democracy can continue if people remain unashamed of what they supported.
We’re talking about the fans of resistance grifters here, too, right? And the social-media-content-moderation-clamorers?
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen »

Jennifer wrote: 28 Oct 2020, 00:30 Damn, Pham, that sucks. But if it's any consolation, the White House science office says the pandemic has ended. It's one of Trump's accomplishments.
I think Trump will lose next week and actually leave office on January 20, 2021, but I am seriously wondering where that last 'courtesy flight' on Air Force One that takes the ex-president home will be going.
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