Orange is the new President

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Warren
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren »

Aresen wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 14:40
Sarah Sanders 'piling on' is somewhat of a featherweight.

SARAH SANDERS JOINS THE BOLTON PILE-ON, CALLS HIM “ARROGANT,” “SELFISH”
With the rest of the country losing their minds in ever more frightening ways, it's easy to forget how downright entertaining this administration is.
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen »

Warren wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 14:57
Aresen wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 14:40
Sarah Sanders 'piling on' is somewhat of a featherweight.

SARAH SANDERS JOINS THE BOLTON PILE-ON, CALLS HIM “ARROGANT,” “SELFISH”
With the rest of the country losing their minds in ever more frightening ways, it's easy to forget how downright entertaining this administration is.
"May you live in amusing times."
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

Poor Donaldik. Even Nickelback managed to fill that arena.

https://www.tulsatoday.com/2010/04/29/joomla-1784/
Last edited by thoreau on 23 Jun 2020, 16:33, edited 1 time in total.
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JasonL
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL »

At first it seemed like trump filled it but then I looked at that photograph.

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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem »

JasonL wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 16:31
At first it seemed like trump filled it but then I looked at that photograph.
Every time I do, it makes me laugh.
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Ellie
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Ellie »

Trump not responding to Putin's bounties on American soldiers. Is this what finally sinks the orange ship? Will Trumpers find a way to fanwank it away? Or is it serious enough to lose him his core base but some other disaster is going to come along to distract everyone before that can happen?
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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem »

Ellie wrote:
27 Jun 2020, 21:26
Trump not responding to Putin's bounties on American soldiers. Is this what finally sinks the orange ship?
Maybe.
Will Trumpers find a way to fanwank it away?


Yes.
Or is it serious enough to lose him his core base but some other disaster is going to come along to distract everyone before that can happen?
He will never lose his core base. They don't care what he does, as long as the "right" people get hurt along the way. Trump going down is about polite suburbanites who really just want to stop caring deciding there's no way Trump will ever allow that.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

The MAGAs are deplorable, and if you gave me six infinity stones I would snap them out of existence.
" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen »

To me, the report sounds like dezinformatsiya since I can see no benefit - direct or indirect - for Russia to offer such a bounty. After all, the Taliban don't need any extra incentive to kill foreign troops.

OTOH, I can see the Russians planting the story as dezinformatsiya for no other reason than to stir up trouble in the US. Even the Guardian story says there is no evidence such a bounty was ever paid:
It is not clear if bounties were ever paid out for successfully killing American soldiers.
I rate this story just slightly above the 'Dead [our people's] babies floating down the river' atrocity stories that surface in every war.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Andrew »

The Russians are offering money to Afghanis to have them travel to America and kill people? That does seem over the line.
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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem »

Andrew wrote:
28 Jun 2020, 07:39
The Russians are offering money to Afghanis to have them travel to America and kill people? That does seem over the line.
It was to kill coalition soldiers in Afghanistan, not to go to the US.
Aresen wrote:
27 Jun 2020, 22:29
To me, the report sounds like dezinformatsiya since I can see no benefit - direct or indirect - for Russia to offer such a bounty. After all, the Taliban don't need any extra incentive to kill foreign troops.
They do when they're looking at the prospect of getting the country back if they maintain their place and avoid making waves long enough for the US to declare peace and go home.

I suspect the bounty is going to turn out to be primarily on non-US soldiers, with the goal of making sure the cost in blood is high enough that the next time the US wants to go on some crusade, we won't have any allies.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Andrew »

Shem wrote:
28 Jun 2020, 11:11
Andrew wrote:
28 Jun 2020, 07:39
The Russians are offering money to Afghanis to have them travel to America and kill people? That does seem over the line.
It was to kill coalition soldiers in Afghanistan, not to go to the US.
I think I see the main problem here, and Russian bounties aren't it.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Kolohe »

Based on the number of US casualties over the past 18 months, the Russian taxpayer is not getting her money’s worth out of this plan.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

Kolohe wrote:
28 Jun 2020, 12:43
Based on the number of US casualties over the past 18 months, the Russian taxpayer is not getting her money’s worth out of this plan.
But no doubt plenty of Russian contractors are getting paid handsomely for providing services to people holding meetings in Central Asia.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer »

thoreau wrote:
27 Jun 2020, 21:58
The MAGAs are deplorable, and if you gave me six infinity stones I would snap them out of existence.
There's a reason I don't want to decide who lives and who dies, because by god I'd put Stalin and Mao to shame.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer »

Shem wrote:
28 Jun 2020, 11:11
Andrew wrote:
28 Jun 2020, 07:39
The Russians are offering money to Afghanis to have them travel to America and kill people? That does seem over the line.
It was to kill coalition soldiers in Afghanistan, not to go to the US.
Aresen wrote:
27 Jun 2020, 22:29
To me, the report sounds like dezinformatsiya since I can see no benefit - direct or indirect - for Russia to offer such a bounty. After all, the Taliban don't need any extra incentive to kill foreign troops.
They do when they're looking at the prospect of getting the country back if they maintain their place and avoid making waves long enough for the US to declare peace and go home.

I suspect the bounty is going to turn out to be primarily on non-US soldiers, with the goal of making sure the cost in blood is high enough that the next time the US wants to go on some crusade, we won't have any allies.
I'm curious if it wasn't so that it could be leaked to the US press around election time to further drive a wedge, especially if they have a way to later prove that it wasn't true and further undermine the credibility of the notion of the responsible press.

One of Putin's big goals seems to be to discredit liberal democracy, which he sees as a huge threat to Russian stability, security, power, and ultimately national greatness. This is a good motivation for either actually doing it to step up attacks and keep America focused there such that we don't free up resources for shoring up European opposition to Russian expansionism/hegemony, or for pretending to do it to drive one more kulturkampf wedge into the American body politic.
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen »

lunchstealer wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 16:02
I'm curious if it wasn't so that it could be leaked to the US press around election time to further drive a wedge, especially if they have a way to later prove that it wasn't true and further undermine the credibility of the notion of the responsible press.

One of Putin's big goals seems to be to discredit liberal democracy, which he sees as a huge threat to Russian stability, security, power, and ultimately national greatness. This is a good motivation for either actually doing it to step up attacks and keep America focused there such that we don't free up resources for shoring up European opposition to Russian expansionism/hegemony, or for pretending to do it to drive one more kulturkampf wedge into the American body politic.
This is what I meant by the possibility of the report being dezinformatsiya. I am still unconvinced that the offer was ever made. Even having the story circulate fulfills the goal of poisoning the US political discourse and, as lunchstealer says, discrediting liberal democracy.

Going a step further, if Putin thinks Trump will not be re-elected, he could use disproving it as a way of showing Biden and the Blues as credulous.

'Biden and the Blues' would be a decent name for a 1950s Retro Band.
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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem »

Aresen wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 16:59
lunchstealer wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 16:02
I'm curious if it wasn't so that it could be leaked to the US press around election time to further drive a wedge, especially if they have a way to later prove that it wasn't true and further undermine the credibility of the notion of the responsible press.

One of Putin's big goals seems to be to discredit liberal democracy, which he sees as a huge threat to Russian stability, security, power, and ultimately national greatness. This is a good motivation for either actually doing it to step up attacks and keep America focused there such that we don't free up resources for shoring up European opposition to Russian expansionism/hegemony, or for pretending to do it to drive one more kulturkampf wedge into the American body politic.
This is what I meant by the possibility of the report being dezinformatsiya. I am still unconvinced that the offer was ever made. Even having the story circulate fulfills the goal of poisoning the US political discourse and, as lunchstealer says, discrediting liberal democracy.

Going a step further, if Putin thinks Trump will not be re-elected, he could use disproving it as a way of showing Biden and the Blues as credulous.

'Biden and the Blues' would be a decent name for a 1950s Retro Band.
The money was transferred from accounts linked to the FSB to the Taliban. I suppose you still can't say it was done for the sake of bounties, but it was done, and that's bad enough. As for why they did it, I suppose it's possible it was done to tamper with the election, but given that Putin gets a much bigger ROI on Trump than really anybody else who could be President, I rather doubt he wants Trump to lose. On the other hand, running up the body count among our coalition partners, who haven't become as blase as us about their soldiers dying, would be a really good way to keep anyone from joining any future coalitions of the willing.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

Here's the one thing that makes me skeptical about the significance: Aren't the US and Russia pretty much always at odds in covert monkey business?

Isn't it always the case that there are shadowy businessmen with passports that don't say "United States" working with various "security contractors" on unspecified business that definitely isn't linked to an equipment malfunction at a facility owned by shadowy businessmen with passports that don't say "Russian Federation" and vice-versa?

Isn't it always the case that Spetsnaz and Delta Force personnel are dying in training accidents whose details cannot be disclosed?

And hasn't it always been the case that US Presidents have nonetheless attended summits with Russian leaders while these things were happening? Haven't they always said "We are committed to continuing constructive diplomatic talks, and will not entertain baseless speculation on rumors of incidents that no reliable reports can confirm..."?

The problem with Trump, of course, is that he doesn't merely attend those summits and whatnot, but also kisses Putin's ass in ways that no previous US leader did with no previous Russian leader. But I feel like it's hardly unprecedented for a US leader to talk to a Russian leader while both pretend that there are no black ops going on.
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen »

thoreau wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 18:52
Here's the one thing that makes me skeptical about the significance: Aren't the US and Russia pretty much always at odds in covert monkey business?

Isn't it always the case that there are shadowy businessmen with passports that don't say "United States" working with various "security contractors" on unspecified business that definitely isn't linked to an equipment malfunction at a facility owned by shadowy businessmen with passports that don't say "Russian Federation" and vice-versa?

Isn't it always the case that Spetsnaz and Delta Force personnel are dying in training accidents whose details cannot be disclosed?

And hasn't it always been the case that US Presidents have nonetheless attended summits with Russian leaders while these things were happening? Haven't they always said "We are committed to continuing constructive diplomatic talks, and will not entertain baseless speculation on rumors of incidents that no reliable reports can confirm..."?

The problem with Trump, of course, is that he doesn't merely attend those summits and whatnot, but also kisses Putin's ass in ways that no previous US leader did with no previous Russian leader. But I feel like it's hardly unprecedented for a US leader to talk to a Russian leader while both pretend that there are no black ops going on.
This has always been an aspect of every nation's foreign policy. You know the other side is doing dirty stuff to you (and you to them), but you pretend neither of you noticed. In international politics, you have to shake a lot of dirty hands and be pleasant with many unpleasant people. The difference with Trump seems to be that he admires nasty people like Putin, Xi, and Duarte.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer »

thoreau wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 18:52
Here's the one thing that makes me skeptical about the significance: Aren't the US and Russia pretty much always at odds in covert monkey business?

Isn't it always the case that there are shadowy businessmen with passports that don't say "United States" working with various "security contractors" on unspecified business that definitely isn't linked to an equipment malfunction at a facility owned by shadowy businessmen with passports that don't say "Russian Federation" and vice-versa?

Isn't it always the case that Spetsnaz and Delta Force personnel are dying in training accidents whose details cannot be disclosed?

And hasn't it always been the case that US Presidents have nonetheless attended summits with Russian leaders while these things were happening? Haven't they always said "We are committed to continuing constructive diplomatic talks, and will not entertain baseless speculation on rumors of incidents that no reliable reports can confirm..."?

The problem with Trump, of course, is that he doesn't merely attend those summits and whatnot, but also kisses Putin's ass in ways that no previous US leader did with no previous Russian leader. But I feel like it's hardly unprecedented for a US leader to talk to a Russian leader while both pretend that there are no black ops going on.
It could be the pettiness of just paying for dead bodies. Not like a bounty on high profile targets, just kill anybody including piss ant grunts and cash in. Not sure that's been much of a thing since the Indian Wars. Which in light of other discussions does suggest that wow that might be a slightly fucked up thing to complain about for America in particular. Even then it was in a state of semi-war locally. Maybe that's been done elsewhere too and I'm just naive, but ... well that's almost certainly true that I'm naive .... Do we have any idea if something similar happened in Afghanistan in the '80s?
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen »

Well, the US did think the Taliban was cool and shipped them money and arms in the 1980s to fight the Russians. Then, they slipped the leash and became uncool.

From Peron to Saddam Hussein to Noriega to Bin Laden, it's almost a modern US tradition.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

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