Orange is the new President

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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

Warren wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 12:22
Pham Nuwen wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 11:23
I just cant wait for him to be out of office so he can betray everyone that bent the knee.
Why wait? He's been betraying everyone all along.

OTOH once he's out, everyone can start betraying him.
They why are you still loyal?
"There are so few people at the Federal Mall it's almost as empty as it was at Trump's inauguration."
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Warren
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren »

thoreau wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 12:26
Warren wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 12:22
Pham Nuwen wrote:
20 Apr 2020, 11:23
I just cant wait for him to be out of office so he can betray everyone that bent the knee.
Why wait? He's been betraying everyone all along.

OTOH once he's out, everyone can start betraying him.
They why are you still loyal?
Why do you try so hard to be an asshole?
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

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"There are so few people at the Federal Mall it's almost as empty as it was at Trump's inauguration."
--D.A. Ridgely

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b »

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer »

Trump is denying that he held rallies in February and March.

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Hugh Akston »

Again, I think Trump's thing is not that he's a liar so much as he just doesn't care what the truth is.
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

Hugh Akston wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:23
Again, I think Trump's thing is not that he's a liar so much as he just doesn't care what the truth is.
That's an awful fine distinction. A liar tells untruths because they find it useful to do so.
"There are so few people at the Federal Mall it's almost as empty as it was at Trump's inauguration."
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Hugh Akston »

thoreau wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:26
Hugh Akston wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:23
Again, I think Trump's thing is not that he's a liar so much as he just doesn't care what the truth is.
That's an awful fine distinction. A liar tells untruths because they find it useful to do so.
True, and Trump 100% says what he says because he thinks the narrative is to his advantage. But the distinction is that a liar has to know the truth in order to tell a lie that steers people away from it. Trump DGAF.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
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JasonL
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL »

The question remains is it a tactical decision to be so indifferent to the truth at all times that tactical lies are given a pass. I remain baffled why supporters put up with it in the sense of why do they think he's not doing the same thing to them. His wink wink thing should be wearing thin long ago.

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Warren
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Re: Orange is the new President

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I remain baffled why anybody is still paying attention to what the president says at all.
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen »

Warren wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:39
I remain baffled why anybody is still paying attention to what the president says at all.
When you are locked in a room with a powerful madman, it is wise to pay attention to his ravings.
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Warren
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren »

Aresen wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:42
Warren wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:39
I remain baffled why anybody is still paying attention to what the president says at all.
When you are locked in a room with a powerful madman, it is wise to pay attention to his ravings.
No, it really isn't. For the sake of your own sanity you should put your ear buds in.
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

Hugh Akston wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:29
thoreau wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:26
Hugh Akston wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:23
Again, I think Trump's thing is not that he's a liar so much as he just doesn't care what the truth is.
That's an awful fine distinction. A liar tells untruths because they find it useful to do so.
True, and Trump 100% says what he says because he thinks the narrative is to his advantage. But the distinction is that a liar has to know the truth in order to tell a lie that steers people away from it. Trump DGAF.
Morally, indifference to truth is pretty close to lying. There's arguably a psychological distinction between the person who knows the truth and the person who doesn't know and doesn't care that they don't know, but it's still a fine one. If I don't know the answer to a question so I make something up because I figure it will be useful, I'm misrepresenting rather than being honest. It's hard to not use the word "lying" for that deliberate misrepresentation.

And I suspect that even many people who tell falsehoods despite knowing the truth still, on some level, persuade themselves that they don't know for sure, or that the truth isn't such a well-defined thing. Maybe the guy who denies beating someone up figures that he has no moral culpability because the other guy started it, so if the other guy started it then isn't it actually the other guy who did this? Maybe the guy who says "That car is mine" when in fact he stole it figures that stealing it makes it his. Maybe the accountant who answers "No" to a question about embezzlement figures that there's enough complexity around these elaborate transactions, and enough blame to go around (not like the guys he embezzled from were totally clean) that the truth is not really a knowable thing here.

Ultimately, a guy who has no problem making things up is either a liar or something so morally close to it that I don't see the point in trying to ward off the "L word."
"There are so few people at the Federal Mall it's almost as empty as it was at Trump's inauguration."
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JasonL
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL »

I think where the distinction become material is when you get to something like inferring motives based on "why would he lie about that". He doesn't need a reason. He just lies all the time. You can't infer anything other than his unreliability from his lying.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem »

Hugh Akston wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:29
thoreau wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:26
Hugh Akston wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:23
Again, I think Trump's thing is not that he's a liar so much as he just doesn't care what the truth is.
That's an awful fine distinction. A liar tells untruths because they find it useful to do so.
True, and Trump 100% says what he says because he thinks the narrative is to his advantage. But the distinction is that a liar has to know the truth in order to tell a lie that steers people away from it. Trump DGAF.
This is the distinction between lies and bullshit.
Warren wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:45
Aresen wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:42
Warren wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:39
I remain baffled why anybody is still paying attention to what the president says at all.
When you are locked in a room with a powerful madman, it is wise to pay attention to his ravings.
No, it really isn't. For the sake of your own sanity you should put your ear buds in.
The madman controls nukes and lots and lots of guns.
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Warren
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren »

Shem wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 15:21
Hugh Akston wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:29
thoreau wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:26
Hugh Akston wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:23
Again, I think Trump's thing is not that he's a liar so much as he just doesn't care what the truth is.
That's an awful fine distinction. A liar tells untruths because they find it useful to do so.
True, and Trump 100% says what he says because he thinks the narrative is to his advantage. But the distinction is that a liar has to know the truth in order to tell a lie that steers people away from it. Trump DGAF.
This is the distinction between lies and bullshit.
Warren wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:45
Aresen wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:42
Warren wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 14:39
I remain baffled why anybody is still paying attention to what the president says at all.
When you are locked in a room with a powerful madman, it is wise to pay attention to his ravings.
No, it really isn't. For the sake of your own sanity you should put your ear buds in.
The madman controls nukes and lots and lots of guns.
Nope
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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem »

He actually does.
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen »

But Trump is really good at letting you know he's lying. Hes got that weird complex where he has to taunt and strongly hint to you that hes lying. It's to make him feel clever. But it's one of the reasons you can infer his motives. He tells you. Like literally tells you.
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Warren
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren »

Shem wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 15:41
He actually does.
No. What he has is authority. But he doesn't control anything. And being the stranger to reality that he is, ain't nobody gonna go firing off nukes on his say so. Did Muller report in vain?
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer »

Warren wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 15:55
Shem wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 15:41
He actually does.
No. What he has is authority. But he doesn't control anything. And being the stranger to reality that he is, ain't nobody gonna go firing off nukes on his say so. Did Muller report in vain?
Muller did indeed report in vain. Also, last time I checked Stephen Miller still has his position despite the release of Katie "too racist for Breitbart" McHugh's emails proving beyond a doubt that he's a white supremacist putting his bigotries into policy.

Also-- in the specific context of your sentence, what is the difference between "authority" and "control," anyway? "I have authority over the US military, but no control over it?" (I agree Trump has no self-control, but that's not the issue here.)
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

I don't believe those people in the chain of command down to the hands-on level over nuclear weapons would obey an order for a preemptive strike. For a retaliatory strike, at least the upper levels of that chain would be aware of the precipitating attack before Trump was, so that doesn't bother me too much either.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen »

I really wasn't think of the guns or nukes. He is the Chief Executive of the United States Government. As such, he has the capacity to issue orders to bureaucrats who can make life miserable for an awful lot of people. ("You don't want to do as I say? I'll just call the director of OSHA and see how many violations we can find on your property.")
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

So far today on grylliade, I've learned that Trump isn't technically a liar, and we need to be very careful in how we describe his dishonesty. It would be lying [insert preferred term here] to describe him as a liar if his disregard for truth and willingness to fabricate deserve a different term.

I've also learned that Trump doesn't control a very powerful security establishment.

This is how I learned to stop worrying and love Trump.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen »

You gotta embrace the entropy man! Look deep into that abyss. No way it will gaze back at you.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Is someone seriously arguing that Trump isn't a liar on grounds that he either doesn't know what he's saying or doesn't care whether he's telling the truth? If so, is that a linguistic claim, a psychological claim, a legal claim, an ethical claim and, perhaps more importantly, what is the practical effect of drawing that distinction?

Trump clearly has a great deal of potentially and sometimes actually harmful and destructive power. Again, I don't think it extends, as a practical matter, to the reckless use of nuclear weapons.

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