Orange is the new President

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dead_elvis
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by dead_elvis »

I just wish people who think that requiring even the slightest effort to vote is evidence of evilness and people who think erring on the side of disenfranchising people is worth it just to prevent even one questionable vote could all get together and go jump in a lake. With those distractions out of the way then maybe we could focus on fixing everything else actually questionable about voting security.
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Warren
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren »

dead_elvis wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 15:33 I just wish people who think that requiring even the slightest effort to vote is evidence of evilness and people who think erring on the side of disenfranchising people is worth it just to prevent even one questionable vote could all get together and go jump in a lake. With those distractions out of the way then maybe we could focus on fixing everything else actually questionable about voting security.
You can tinker all you want, in the end it's still the unwashed masses voting in asses.
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

I'm glad that Joni Ernst is focused on the REAL corruption.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/481 ... hite-house
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lunchstealer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer »

Hugh Akston wrote: 01 Feb 2020, 20:44
lunchstealer wrote: 01 Feb 2020, 19:41 Almost undoubtedly flipped Florida in 2000 which flipped the presidential election which almost undoubtedly caused the Iraq War.
I wish I could experience that level of confidence in a counterfactual involving a whopper of a wildcard.
I believe that in the early-to-mid '00s there was some investigative reporting which turned up some pretty good evidence that they were intentionally aggressive about removing people from the rolls for having names that matched felons, and that a lot of innocent people got lost, and that it did disproportionately hit black and Hispanic communities pretty hard. Like tens of thousands of registrations cancelled, many later determined to have been mistaken identity. Florida was one of the few states that included out-of-state felonies, and they got their lists of out-of-state felons from a company that turned out to be pretty abysmal at correctly identifying people. Wanna say the estimated incorrect voter registration cancellations in teh four-digit ranges, and it wouldn't take too much of that to flip the last count, which might have been too much for SCOTUS to ignore.
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

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The North Carolina legislature specifically researched the voting habits of African Americans and then passed a law designed to make voting harder for them without affecting white voters.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... ck-voters/

I want to sympathize with ID requirements. I used to work at polling places in a neighborhood full of white kids who would be all "I, like, moved, and, like, I think I was signed up for an absentee ballot at my old address which was, like, in another precinct, but I don't know for sure. Can I vote, like, here?" If this was just about a minimal and reasonable hurdle against fraud, one that can be surmounted by any legit voter who has their shit remotely together, I would be fine with it. But we are seeing what these laws are really about.
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer »

Also, regarding the recent shenanigans in Georgia, a lot of the so-called "wrong name" registrations were also more likely to hit Hispanic or black populations, and they involved errors NOT on the voter's part, but on some voter registrar somewhere. Things like "A certain man has the first name De'Shawn, spelled with an apostrophe and a capital S, and that's how it's spelled on forms filled out by De'Shawn himself -- but some bureaucrat in a registrar's office somewhere inputted his name as Deshawn or DeShawn or some other incorrect spelling --- so De'Shawn was booted from the registered-voter rolls because of this discrepancy."

There was also stuff like "People kicked off voters rolls for not reporting their change-of-address" ... which they didn't have to do because they never moved. And in all such cases, of course, somehow the registrars of voters never manage to inform these people of their recent change in voting status until it's too late.
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

In principle I agree that lists need to be maintained, bad records need to be updated or deleted. I even agree that reality means accepting a certain number of errors as inevitable.

It is interesting how the real life error rates disproportionately purge Blue-leaning minority groups in Red States.

Lists need to be maintained, but it's clear that the legit purpose is currently just a fig leaf for an illegitimate purpose.
" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
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Painboy
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Painboy »

If voter suppression was that effective I suspect the Democratic party would be far more active in working to counter it and you'd hear a lot more about it. So while morally I don't like it, practically I don't think it has much effect.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

True. Democratic legislators never bother to oppose these bills, and Blue advocacy groups never both to pour resources into lawsuits over vote suppression laws, so it must be that nobody believes these laws to have any effect.
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

Further proof that vote suppression doesn't work is that Republican legislators never bothered to put any effort into passing such bills, and certainly never allocated money to contractors who could implement the measures. So the status quo remains efficient.
" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer »

Painboy wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 17:57 If voter suppression was that effective I suspect the Democratic party would be far more active in working to counter it and you'd hear a lot more about it. So while morally I don't like it, practically I don't think it has much effect.
That sounds like a vague target indeed-- the news coverage that already exists (much of which has been discussed here over the past couple years) is not sufficient for you to think this is a real issue? What, do you think all the previous reports were just, like, made up? Or does "you'd hear a lot more about it" mean that, like, even Fox News,the National Review and other right-of-center news sites would stop their Democrats-bashing just long enough to report "In this one instance, the Blues were right to complain?"
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

I'm trying to wrap my head around the narratives:

1) Government is inefficient and politicians are short-sighted.
2) If this stuff mattered then Blue politicians would spend their time on it.
3) Even if this stuff doesn't matter, Red politicians will spend their time on it.
4) Both parties are exactly the same.

I could wrap my mind around any two of these statements, maybe even some combinations of 3, but not all 4 at once.

Let me know when we switch from "Four legs good, two legs bad" to "Four legs good, two legs better."
" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
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Painboy
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Painboy »

Jennifer wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 20:22
Painboy wrote: 02 Feb 2020, 17:57 If voter suppression was that effective I suspect the Democratic party would be far more active in working to counter it and you'd hear a lot more about it. So while morally I don't like it, practically I don't think it has much effect.
That sounds like a vague target indeed-- the news coverage that already exists (much of which has been discussed here over the past couple years) is not sufficient for you to think this is a real issue? What, do you think all the previous reports were just, like, made up? Or does "you'd hear a lot more about it" mean that, like, even Fox News,the National Review and other right-of-center news sites would stop their Democrats-bashing just long enough to report "In this one instance, the Blues were right to complain?"
News stories are not a good way to judge the level of frequency of something. See the breathless coverage of the mass shooting "epidemic."

The Democratic party aren't all a bunch of idiots. As a party, winning elections is it's primary purpose. If this was such a major problem they would be devoting far more resources to combat it.
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

True. If this were an actual problem then there would be lawsuits. But there must not be any lawsuits so we can conclude that the status quo is perfectly efficient.
" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer »

In Georgia, there have been so many lawsuits about voter suppression that the state attorney general is starting to complain about the cost of defending against them.

EDIT: Much-later html/typo fix.
Last edited by Jennifer on 12 Feb 2020, 16:25, edited 1 time in total.
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

State television is currently explaining that the Dear Leader was correct to say that Kansas City is in Kansas.

" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
--Mo
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nicole
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by nicole »

Just tell the truth, New Yorkers don't know or care which KC has the Chiefs (or anything else)
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Re: Orange is the new President

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nicole wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 10:27 Just tell the truth, New Yorkers don't know or care which KC has the Chiefs (or anything else)
97% of all Americans think KC is in Kansas.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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I'd jump in and try to explain, from the perspective of an actual, real-life Kansas Citian, the Kansas/Missouri divide, but I just don't have the energy right now. Short version: the Chiefs are based in Kansas City, Missouri. When you see pictures of downtown Kansas City, Union Station, fountains, etc, that's Kansas City Missouri. There is also a Kansas City Kansas, which is adjacent to Kansas City Missouri, but smaller and poorer. To complicate things, there is a North Kansas City, which is its own city, but surrounded by a part of Kansas City Missouri known as Kansas City North, North Kansas City, or. more broadly, the Northland. (I am a resident of that part of KCMO known as the Northland.)
It's freaking complicated, yo. But yes, everyone here, including people on the Kansas side, shook their heads. But we're used to it.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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How much difference does it make when you are flying over?
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Warren
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren »

Aresen wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 19:26 How much difference does it make when you are flying over?
About 37 microseconds.
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Number 6
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Aresen wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 19:26 How much difference does it make when you are flying over?
None whatsoever.* However, in living memory (my mother's), Kansas was so dry that flight attendants would collect all drinks and suspend booze service while over KS air space. Missouri has never been quite that blue-nosed.

*Should you land, it's worth knowing that you are on the far, far northern edge of the metro area. If it looks like there's no city there as you come in, it's because you haven't reached the city yet.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Number 6 wrote: 04 Feb 2020, 00:16
Aresen wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 19:26 How much difference does it make when you are flying over?
None whatsoever.* However, in living memory (my mother's), Kansas was so dry that flight attendants would collect all drinks and suspend booze service while over KS air space.
You'd think they'd have made an exception for corn liquor!
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren »

D.A. Ridgely wrote: 04 Feb 2020, 12:18
Number 6 wrote: 04 Feb 2020, 00:16
Aresen wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 19:26 How much difference does it make when you are flying over?
None whatsoever.* However, in living memory (my mother's), Kansas was so dry that flight attendants would collect all drinks and suspend booze service while over KS air space.
You'd think they'd have made an exception for corn liquor!
*tsk tsk*
Kansas is wheat country.
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Warren wrote: 04 Feb 2020, 14:03
D.A. Ridgely wrote: 04 Feb 2020, 12:18
Number 6 wrote: 04 Feb 2020, 00:16
Aresen wrote: 03 Feb 2020, 19:26 How much difference does it make when you are flying over?
None whatsoever.* However, in living memory (my mother's), Kansas was so dry that flight attendants would collect all drinks and suspend booze service while over KS air space.
You'd think they'd have made an exception for corn liquor!
*tsk tsk*
Kansas is wheat country.
Per the all-knowing Wikipedia:
By 2015, Kansas was one of the most productive agricultural states, producing high yields of wheat, corn, sorghum, and soybeans.
Lottsa corn in Kansas. I've driven through and seen it.
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