Orange is the new President

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JasonL
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL »

I used to be a skeptic of EC reform but you guys have talked me into almost complete meh one way or the other. I don't think it matters that much.

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Re: Orange is the new President

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JasonL wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 17:34
Speaking for myself, the invocation of EC in the context of the above sounded to me like there was some previous time when EC wasn't important but now that it is we have to care about it and net approval doesn't even matter. I don't know if net approval ever had high correspondence with election outcomes, but I can say that to the extent it ever mattered EC was still present at that time.
There's nothing wrong with the EC. Doing away with it would be a thousand times worse in a close race.
Plus all the whining about how the EC winner got fewer total votes in a race where no one got a majority of votes somehow invalidates their victory is infantile.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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JasonL wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 18:07
I used to be a skeptic of EC reform but you guys have talked me into almost complete meh one way or the other. I don't think it matters that much.
You don't think it will result in Blue victory forever or it will but it doesn't matter?
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JasonL
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Used to fear it would, now don't think it would.

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Mo
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Re: Orange is the new President

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If the EC deviates too much/for too long from the PV, it will have large downstream legitimacy issues if parties remain ideologically locked.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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JasonL wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 18:24
Used to fear it would, now don't think it would.
Of course it wouldn't. Keeping the electorate focused on Dems vs Reps is how the establishment runs things. When times are bad, people are going to throw out whichever team is in power. The winning teams will change even just with the pendulum. But the game is the game.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Mo wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 18:02
When Texas goes the slightest bit blue tinted and causes an EC/PV split in favor of the Ds, the EC will be an abomination
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Mo wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 18:32
If the EC deviates too much/for too long from the PV, it will have large downstream legitimacy issues if parties remain ideologically locked.
1. There's nothing more "legitimate" about prioritizing the PV over the EC.
B. "Ideologically locked"? I can't detect any ideology in either major party that endures past a single senate term.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Warren wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 18:35
1. There's nothing more "legitimate" about prioritizing the PV over the EC.
In one sense you are absolutely right: Popular pluralities have no inherent right to rule over everyone else.

In another sense, you need a system with broad buy-in, and if the most powerful office in the land frequently goes to a person who failed a criterion that applies in literally every other election, you'll see a breakdown of buy-in. That's bad.

Yes, yes, maybe they should all just read the Federalist Papers and pretend that we haven't had two and a half centuries of experience since then, but I don't think they'll do either the reading or the pretending.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b »

Mo wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 18:02
When Texas goes the slightest bit blue tinted and causes an EC/PV split in favor of the Ds, the EC will be an abomination
You fucking know it.

(It's funny to me that both Gore and Clinton had minions go on news programs before their elections to try to remind people that the EC is the law of the land, out of their campaigns' fears that they might win the EC but not the popular vote. Both for the ridiculous miscalculations involved and the fact that yes, that happening in either case would have lead to a Team Red crusade for popular presidential vote.)

I still wouldn't mind keeping the EC if-and-only-if becoming president required both winning the EC and the popular vote, even if that required going back to the polls one or more times because none of the first-round candidates won. I think that would better accomplish some of the popularly-claimed benefits of the EC (broad appeal among the states, preventing dipshit demagogues, etc.) than going by it alone.

Otherwise, though, junk the EC.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Eric the .5b wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 18:42
I still wouldn't mind keeping the EC if-and-only-if becoming president required both winning the EC and the popular vote, even if that required going back to the polls one or more times because none of the first-round candidates won. I think that would better accomplish some of the popularly-claimed benefits of the EC (broad appeal among the states, preventing dipshit demagogues, etc.) than going by it alone.

Otherwise, though, junk the EC.
Co-signed.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

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And everybody flips their position when the Dems win the EC but lose the popular.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Warren wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 19:38
And everybody flips their position when the Dems win the EC but lose the popular.
Tu Quoque doesn't cut it, but when was the last time the Blues won the EC and lost the popular vote?
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau »

Aresen wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 19:56
Warren wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 19:38
And everybody flips their position when the Dems win the EC but lose the popular.
Tu Quoque doesn't cut it, but when was the last time the Blues won the EC and lost the popular vote?
1960, arguably.

Otherwise, although 1888 and 1876 both went to Republicans, back then the Republicans were New England liberals.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

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I personally don’t think it matters but I do think support for popular only is about 75% belief that it will be permanent donkey governance and it would evaporate 2 elections of republicans later in favor of some other theory about how donkeys are perpetually cheated out of real power.

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Re: Orange is the new President

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JasonL wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 20:16
I personally don’t think it matters but I do think support for popular only is about 75% belief that it will be permanent donkey governance and it would evaporate 2 elections of republicans later in favor of some other theory about how donkeys are perpetually cheated out of real power.
I'll buy that
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren »

Hugh Akston wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 21:13
JasonL wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 20:16
I personally don’t think it matters but I do think support for popular only is about 75% belief that it will be permanent donkey governance and it would evaporate 2 elections of republicans later in favor of some other theory about how donkeys are perpetually cheated out of real power.
I'll buy that
Sounds about right.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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JasonL wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 17:34
Speaking for myself, the invocation of EC in the context of the above sounded to me like there was some previous time when EC wasn't important but now that it is we have to care about it and net approval doesn't even matter. I don't know if net approval ever had high correspondence with election outcomes, but I can say that to the extent it ever mattered EC was still present at that time.
Cool. Could you explain why you had to be so fucking snide about it, though?
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo »

JasonL wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 20:16
I personally don’t think it matters but I do think support for popular only is about 75% belief that it will be permanent donkey governance and it would evaporate 2 elections of republicans later in favor of some other theory about how donkeys are perpetually cheated out of real power.
Ds still pushed NPV even post-2004 where, but for a close Ohio election, the EC/PV split almost went the other way.
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JasonL
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Re: Orange is the new President

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There’s probably an alternate universe in which donkeys get popular vote system they want and immigrant Catholics become the decisive bloc that topples national sentiment on RoevWade. I wouldn’t want to live there but I’d visit to point and laugh for a minute or two.

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Re: Orange is the new President

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Is there anything, anything at all, that can be improved about the system as it currently exists? Or do we live in the best of all possible status quos?
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

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thoreau wrote:
31 Jan 2020, 09:44
Is there anything, anything at all, that can be improved about the system as it currently exists? Or do we live in the best of all possible status quos?
We could chose our political leaders by lottery.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Warren wrote:
31 Jan 2020, 09:50
thoreau wrote:
31 Jan 2020, 09:44
Is there anything, anything at all, that can be improved about the system as it currently exists? Or do we live in the best of all possible status quos?
We could chose our political leaders by lottery.
In the Shirley Jackson sense, one hopes
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Mo
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo »

The constitution is whatever Trump says it is according tot Republican appointed judges part 450

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/3 ... ges-109550
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Legally, the President can do whatever he wants. It's part of the evolving Constitution, the same one that let Obama continue the Libya intervention without Congressional approval.

If you disagree with this then you are trying to undermine the rule of law and replace it with your own dictatorial whim.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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