Orange is the new President

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b » 30 Aug 2019, 20:10

Jennifer wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 20:00
Eric the .5b wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 19:03
How would you flatten Guatemala while GAF about civilian lives?
Pretty easily, when you're willing to be flexible about the exact meaning of "civilian." Remember when official "terrorists" were the only people in Yemen who ever went to wedding parties?
Oh, right.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 30 Aug 2019, 22:28

JasonL wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 14:24
I get the republic thing but I also feel like we are in a zone where the perceived legitimacy of outcomes is razor thin. I want to avoid using technical means to overturn election results to keep us on the right side of that line.
Meanwhile, President Troll is using his trolling to make sure his followers will see his victory as being the one and only legitimate outcome, with any alternative being the result of attempts to steal "their" country. You're not going to preserve their faith in the process.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 30 Aug 2019, 22:41

Shem wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 22:28
JasonL wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 14:24
I get the republic thing but I also feel like we are in a zone where the perceived legitimacy of outcomes is razor thin. I want to avoid using technical means to overturn election results to keep us on the right side of that line.
Meanwhile, President Troll is using his trolling to make sure his followers will see his victory as being the one and only legitimate outcome, with any alternative being the result of attempts to steal "their" country. You're not going to preserve their faith in the process.
Are you talking about a result from Nov 3, 2020 where Trump gets > 270 electoral votes or something else that puts Trump out of office. Serious question. I'm just trying to clarify your point. (I realize that there are some members of the Trumpentariat who would claim fraud even if Trump got less than 40% of the popular vote, but I think even Mitch McConnell would concede defeat if the result mirrored 2012 in favor of the Democratic party candidate.)
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 31 Aug 2019, 00:24

Aresen wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 22:41
Shem wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 22:28
JasonL wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 14:24
I get the republic thing but I also feel like we are in a zone where the perceived legitimacy of outcomes is razor thin. I want to avoid using technical means to overturn election results to keep us on the right side of that line.
Meanwhile, President Troll is using his trolling to make sure his followers will see his victory as being the one and only legitimate outcome, with any alternative being the result of attempts to steal "their" country. You're not going to preserve their faith in the process.
Are you talking about a result from Nov 3, 2020 where Trump gets > 270 electoral votes or something else that puts Trump out of office. Serious question. I'm just trying to clarify your point. (I realize that there are some members of the Trumpentariat who would claim fraud even if Trump got less than 40% of the popular vote, but I think even Mitch McConnell would concede defeat if the result mirrored 2012 in favor of the Democratic party candidate.)
Literally anything that is not complete and total submission to any and every momentary fancy that occurs to his Swiss-cheese brain. Lost elections, impeachment, voting against his legislation, taking his ill-considered and sadistic policies to court, saying mean things about him, anything. Right now, he's telling his supporters via Twitter and his reelection campaign that unfavorable polls are an attempt to suppress his support, that 19 million people stand at the ready to vote illegally against him to keep him from winning the next election, that Fox News is now in the tank for Democrats, that AOC needs to shut up because this is "our country," and that it's only fair that he be given more than 8 years to be President, since the Russia investigation "stole his time in office." Along with a host of other things that would have had people demanding his ouster if people weren't suddenly determined to grade his actions on a curve. In short, he's doing everything he possibly can to convince the rabid segment of his base that the only thing that could possibly lead to their failure is fraud and perfidy from his enemies. It makes the idea that an impeachment proceeding is going to make his supporters any more convinced that they're being undermined seem rather quaint. I mean, what year do you think this is? At this point, you might as well stand up for principle.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 31 Aug 2019, 01:30

And it isn't just anger and resentment on the right that we have to worry about. What are people who sit to the right of Elizabeth Warren but the left of [insert your idea of a supremely moderate Blue here] to think if they see Trump get away with umpteen million transgressions that would, at a minimum, destroy anyone else's political career, and certainly result in impeachment in some cases? Are they going to conclude that they can get incremental progress towards their goals if they just sit tight and let things play out while respecting process and not pushing too far? Or are they going to conclude that the only way to get any sort of move in a leftward direction is by supporting their own populist bull in a china shop and disregarding norms?

If Trump gets away with this, Blue will conclude not that they just need another Obama-style centrist to work with majorities led by Schumer and Pelosi, but that they need their own Trump and McConnell. Trump getting away with shit gets you more Bernie and AOC, not less. If you want responsible centrist governance then you need to show that centrists can keep radicals in check. Otherwise, people will conclude that if they want a result that's to the left of the current governing coalition, they need the craziest norm-defying liberal they can get.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 31 Aug 2019, 07:08

You can’t save yourself from people wanting those kinds of politicians by technical procedure. Let’s be clear - you can’t get him out of there via impeachment precisely because he retains political support. He is going to, barring something extraordinary “get away with it” in some sense. The most likely way it which he won’t get away with it would be to lose an election such that moderates no longer felt trumpism is the way to win.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 31 Aug 2019, 10:06

JasonL wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 07:08
Let’s be clear - you can’t get him out of there via impeachment precisely because he retains political support.
So did Nixon, before the Watergate Hearings started. Do you think Nixon woke up one morning and the country had turned on him? It was the result of months of public testimony making clear exactly what had happened.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 31 Aug 2019, 10:19

Shem wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 10:06
JasonL wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 07:08
Let’s be clear - you can’t get him out of there via impeachment precisely because he retains political support.
So did Nixon, before the Watergate Hearings started. Do you think Nixon woke up one morning and the country had turned on him? It was the result of months of public testimony making clear exactly what had happened.
With no talk radio, Fox News or social media constantly decrying all the mainstream media reporting of that testimony as false news, conspiracy, etc.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 31 Aug 2019, 11:15

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
Shem wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 10:06
JasonL wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 07:08
Let’s be clear - you can’t get him out of there via impeachment precisely because he retains political support.
So did Nixon, before the Watergate Hearings started. Do you think Nixon woke up one morning and the country had turned on him? It was the result of months of public testimony making clear exactly what had happened.
With no talk radio, Fox News or social media constantly decrying all the mainstream media reporting of that testimony as false news, conspiracy, etc.
Granted, you were there and I was still in my mother's ovaries, but some of the historical accounts that I've read suggest that Nixon's supporters weren't exactly silent. Public opinion strongly favored impeachment but was hardly unanimous in favor of impeachment. What Nixon's foes did was hard but they did it nonetheless rather than just saying "Look, he has supporters and a media strategy so whadayagonnado?"
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 31 Aug 2019, 11:56

thoreau wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 11:15
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
Shem wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 10:06
JasonL wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 07:08
Let’s be clear - you can’t get him out of there via impeachment precisely because he retains political support.
So did Nixon, before the Watergate Hearings started. Do you think Nixon woke up one morning and the country had turned on him? It was the result of months of public testimony making clear exactly what had happened.
With no talk radio, Fox News or social media constantly decrying all the mainstream media reporting of that testimony as false news, conspiracy, etc.
Granted, you were there and I was still in my mother's ovaries, but some of the historical accounts that I've read suggest that Nixon's supporters weren't exactly silent. Public opinion strongly favored impeachment but was hardly unanimous in favor of impeachment. What Nixon's foes did was hard but they did it nonetheless rather than just saying "Look, he has supporters and a media strategy so whadayagonnado?"
I didn't mean to imply impeaching or otherwise legally removing Trump is not possible, I was merely noting that the media and cultural context have changed since the 70s. As with the round-the-clock coverage given to JFK's assassination and burial, the Watergate hearings being watched hour after hour on television was an unprecedented use of broadcast TV and the still new PBS and NPR. As Wikipedia describes it:
The first weeks of the committee's hearings were a national politico-cultural event. They were broadcast live during the day on commercial television; at the start, CBS, NBC, and ABC covered them simultaneously, and then later on a rotation basis, while PBS replayed the hearings at night. Some 319 hours were broadcast overall, and 85% of U.S. households watched some portion of them. The audio feed also was broadcast gavel-to-gavel on scores of National Public Radio stations, making the hearings available to people in their cars and workplaces, and giving a major boost to the fledgling broadcast organization.
Of course, there were staunch and vocal Nixon supporters. Plenty of them. But the Republican Party was a substantially different animal and Congress was still, after a fashion, doing its job in the 1970s. Also, Nixon was nothing if not a realist. Arguably, had he burned the tapes and told Congress to pound sand, he could have withstood an impeachment attempt, but he didn't and, unlike the delusional Trump, he was willing to cut his losses rather than roll the dice in an actual impeachment trial. None of those factors are the same now.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 31 Aug 2019, 12:47

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 11:56
But the Republican Party was a substantially different animal and Congress was still, after a fashion, doing its job in the 1970s.
There certainly are differences between the 1970's and now. The GOP and its supporting media ecosystem is much deeper in what Julian Sanchez has referred to as "epistemic closure." I am quite certain that the GOP base (which is far more synonymous with Trump's base than the rest of the GOP would like to admit) will freak the fuck out if he is impeached, let alone removed. I'm quite certain it will get ugly.

I'm also certain of a few other things:
1) If the GOP continue to hang out in the fever swamp there will eventually be pushback from the outside. When people driven mad by fever start rampaging, eventually the neighbors engage in brutal quarantine. Blues and moderates will eventually fight back. And the only form of fighting back will actually matter will be the sort that results in the right hearing a meaningful "NO!" that they really don't want to hear. It won't be a bunch of people sponsoring a bipartisan bill that Mitch McConnell can block, it will be people doing something that has Trump screaming bloody murder.

We can only say "Oh noes! The right might revolt!" for so long before somebody eventually says "Fuck it, I've had enough."

2) I'd much prefer a scenario where "Fuck it, I've had enough!" comes from a centrist than a leftist. A centrist might say "Fuck it, I've had enough, time to impose some goddamn standards and stop abusing the Emoluments Clause." A leftist might say "Fuck it, I've had enough, time to implement what an article in The Nation claims that European healthcare is like."

If "Fuck it, we've had enough" comes from centrists or even Republican-leaning types (e.g. suburban professionals who lean right on many issues and could vote against Mitch McConnell in primary and general elections) then maybe we'll get a restoration of sanity. If "Fuck it, we've had enough" come from people who decide its time for President Sanders and Senator Ocasio-Cortez, we'll get fiscal insanity.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 31 Aug 2019, 12:48

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 11:56
But the Republican Party was a substantially different animal and Congress was still, after a fashion, doing its job in the 1970s.
There certainly are differences between the 1970's and now. The GOP and its supporting media ecosystem is much deeper in what Julian Sanchez has referred to as "epistemic closure." I am quite certain that the GOP base (which is far more synonymous with Trump's base than the rest of the GOP would like to admit) will freak the fuck out if he is impeached, let alone removed. I'm quite certain it will get ugly.

I'm also certain of a few other things:
1) If the GOP continue to hang out in the fever swamp there will eventually be pushback from the outside. When people driven mad by fever start rampaging, eventually the neighbors engage in brutal quarantine. Blues and moderates will eventually fight back. And the only form of fighting back that will actually matter will be the sort that results in the right hearing a meaningful "NO!" that they really don't want to hear. It won't be a bunch of people sponsoring a bipartisan bill that Mitch McConnell can block, it will be people doing something that has Trump screaming bloody murder.

We can only say "Oh noes! The right might revolt!" for so long before somebody eventually says "Fuck it, I've had enough."

2) I'd much prefer a scenario where "Fuck it, I've had enough!" comes from a centrist than a leftist. A centrist might say "Fuck it, I've had enough, time to impose some goddamn standards and stop abusing the Emoluments Clause." A leftist might say "Fuck it, I've had enough, time to implement what an article in The Nation claims that European healthcare is like."

If "Fuck it, we've had enough" comes from centrists or even Republican-leaning types (e.g. suburban professionals who lean right on many issues and could vote against Mitch McConnell in primary and general elections) then maybe we'll get a restoration of sanity. If "Fuck it, we've had enough" come from people who decide its time for President Sanders and Senator Ocasio-Cortez, we'll get fiscal insanity.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 31 Aug 2019, 13:22

I'm not personally worried about an actual revolt from any part of the political spectrum, regardless. Trump will be gone in a year and a half or five and a half years and then he'll have to choose between cashing in and remaining a populist rabble-monger. I'm pretty confident which way he'll go.

Right now, we have Republicans in the Senate actually contemplating removing presidential authority to impose tariffs. That's a pretty big deal these days, especially if it happens. Yeah, it would have been nicer if it happened when Obama started killing people off his secret list or when Trump began his mass incarceration of refugees and asylum seekers. It would have been nice if Congress stood up to any president in modern history. It would be nice if we were all agreed that, whatever the argument for not trying a sitting president for crimes might be, they faced genuine prosecutorial threat after leaving office. It would be nice if lots of things happened, but as matters stand today an impeachment trial isn't one of them.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 31 Aug 2019, 15:03

I think Thoreau sees a”fuck it we’ve had enough emoluments and impeachable behavior” from the left where I see “fuck it we’ve had enough of almost all political others, there is only us and white supremacy”. Having the wrong politics IS the problem.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 31 Aug 2019, 16:02

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 13:22
Trump will be gone in a year and a half or five and a half years and then he'll have to choose between cashing in and remaining a populist rabble-monger. I'm pretty confident which way he'll go.
He's going to do both by starting his own news channel, just like he was planning to do when he lost to Clinton.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren » 31 Aug 2019, 16:44

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 13:22
I'm not personally worried about an actual revolt from any part of the political spectrum, regardless. Trump will be gone in a year and a half or five and a half years and then he'll have to choose between cashing in and remaining a populist rabble-monger. I'm pretty confident which way he'll go.

Right now, we have Republicans in the Senate actually contemplating removing presidential authority to impose tariffs. That's a pretty big deal these days, especially if it happens. Yeah, it would have been nicer if it happened when Obama started killing people off his secret list or when Trump began his mass incarceration of refugees and asylum seekers. It would have been nice if Congress stood up to any president in modern history. It would be nice if we were all agreed that, whatever the argument for not trying a sitting president for crimes might be, they faced genuine prosecutorial threat after leaving office. It would be nice if lots of things happened, but as matters stand today an impeachment trial isn't one of them.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 31 Aug 2019, 17:08

Shem wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 16:02
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 13:22
Trump will be gone in a year and a half or five and a half years and then he'll have to choose between cashing in and remaining a populist rabble-monger. I'm pretty confident which way he'll go.
He's going to do both by starting his own news channel, just like he was planning to do when he lost to Clinton.
There is a certain type of person, common among politicians, who needs to be in the center of things. Deprived of it, they literally can't survive. No longer being 'Number One' kills them within a year or two of losing office. I think Trump is that type of person. Especially if he loses November 3, 2020, I will not be surprised if we're reading his obituary within a year after he leaves office.

(Of course, that will set off a zillion conspiracy theories on its own.)
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 31 Aug 2019, 17:36

Whenever he does us all a favor and passes on, I plan to make sure that the grass over his grave is very well fertilized.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b » 31 Aug 2019, 18:02

Aresen wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 17:08
Shem wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 16:02
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 13:22
Trump will be gone in a year and a half or five and a half years and then he'll have to choose between cashing in and remaining a populist rabble-monger. I'm pretty confident which way he'll go.
He's going to do both by starting his own news channel, just like he was planning to do when he lost to Clinton.
There is a certain type of person, common among politicians, who needs to be in the center of things. Deprived of it, they literally can't survive. No longer being 'Number One' kills them within a year or two of losing office.
Considering how long former presidents seem to linger on, I kinda want examples.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 31 Aug 2019, 18:36

thoreau wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 01:30
If Trump gets away with this, Blue will conclude not that they just need another Obama-style centrist to work with majorities led by Schumer and Pelosi, but that they need their own Trump and McConnell. Trump getting away with shit gets you more Bernie and AOC, not less.
The hell of it is, "more Bernie and AOC" is actually the best-case scenario here. Because the left-wing equivalents to Trump are not Sanders, AOC or E. Warren but the Saira Rao types: same levels of narcissism, bigotry and economic ignorance; only difference is which groups they designate as scapegoats.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 31 Aug 2019, 22:30

“The president paused in front of the exhibit that discussed the role of the Dutch in the slave trade,” Bunch writes. “As he pondered the label I felt that maybe he was paying attention to the work of the museum. He quickly proved me wrong. As he turned from the display he said to me, ‘You know, they love me in the Netherlands.’ All I could say was let’s continue walking.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai ... story.html
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b » 02 Sep 2019, 02:39

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b » 02 Sep 2019, 03:07

Trump admin is denying citizenship to some children of same-sex couples.

This is why the evangelical stand by him—he delivers on the shittiness they want.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 02 Sep 2019, 10:41

Is there anyone who isn't being denied citizenship by this administration?

(Besides the offspring of Eastern European models who don't have their paperwork in order but acquiesce to sex with rich guys.)
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 03 Sep 2019, 07:44

Jesus Christ, could it be any more obvious that Trump is just using this administration as a grift to enrich himself? Who the fuck would ever stay in Doonbeg for meetings in Dublin for any non-grifty rational reason?
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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