Orange is the new President

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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 29 Aug 2019, 19:31

thoreau wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:28
One thing I learned on the middle school playground is that it doesn't count if you say "Psych!" when someone tries to call you on it. I think this precedent was cited in a Yoo memo.
And then, once you've matured beyond the middle school "psych!" phase, it doesn't count if you say "Just kidding!" or "Can't you take a joke?"
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 29 Aug 2019, 19:38

Jennifer wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:31
thoreau wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:28
One thing I learned on the middle school playground is that it doesn't count if you say "Psych!" when someone tries to call you on it. I think this precedent was cited in a Yoo memo.
And then, once you've matured beyond the middle school "psych!" phase, it doesn't count if you say "Just kidding!" or "Can't you take a joke?"
Well, in high school I got into D&D, so whether or not you could get away with it depended on some complicated formulas involving CHR checks, saving throws vs. charm, and whether you were high enough in level to have henchmen.

I think Trump will make his save, though.
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"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 29 Aug 2019, 19:39

Anyway, Trump has pardoned people for misconduct on the job, but he's never pardoned people who were involved in building walls at his behest, so I think it's pretty questionable to assume that his offer of a pardon actually means something.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Painboy » 29 Aug 2019, 19:49

Jennifer wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:23
Painboy wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:15
Shem wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:07
JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 14:40
If they have refuge under sarcasm snark and trolling it's hard to use word only as something like impeachable.
Is that the country you want to live in?
What does that even mean?
If I had to guess, I'd say he meant "Do you want to live in a country where leaders can subvert the law by saying 'Just kidding'?"
I would rather have a country with a lot less government in all aspects of life but that's not happening so I have to deal with things as they are. And when it comes to Trump 90% of the time what he says is just him blathering or playing to the crowd. Until it actually turns into a policy push there's no point trying in to divine if what he says actually means anything.

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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 29 Aug 2019, 19:51

Painboy wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:49
Jennifer wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:23
Painboy wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:15
Shem wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:07
JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 14:40
If they have refuge under sarcasm snark and trolling it's hard to use word only as something like impeachable.
Is that the country you want to live in?
What does that even mean?
If I had to guess, I'd say he meant "Do you want to live in a country where leaders can subvert the law by saying 'Just kidding'?"
I would rather have a country with a lot less government in all aspects of life but that's not happening so I have to deal with things as they are.
I too would like less government, but the question "how much government should we have" is entirely different from "how much accountability should we expect from individual members of said government."
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Hugh Akston » 29 Aug 2019, 21:57

Jennifer wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:51
Painboy wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:49
Jennifer wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:23
Painboy wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:15
Shem wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:07
JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 14:40
If they have refuge under sarcasm snark and trolling it's hard to use word only as something like impeachable.
Is that the country you want to live in?
What does that even mean?
If I had to guess, I'd say he meant "Do you want to live in a country where leaders can subvert the law by saying 'Just kidding'?"
I would rather have a country with a lot less government in all aspects of life but that's not happening so I have to deal with things as they are.
I too would like less government, but the question "how much government should we have" is entirely different from "how much accountability should we expect from individual members of said government."
The correct answer is 'none'. What do I win?
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 29 Aug 2019, 22:36

Hugh Akston wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 21:57
Jennifer wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:51
I too would like less government, but the question "how much government should we have" is entirely different from "how much accountability should we expect from individual members of said government."
The correct answer is 'none'. What do I win?
Congratulations, you win a Libertarian Purity Badge* and ten years in the camps.

*Approximate value of LPB = one Comcast promise.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 29 Aug 2019, 22:38

Aresen wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 22:36
Congratulations, you win a Libertarian Purity Badge* and ten years in the camps.
Do we lose the purity badge if we refer to the camps by the wrong label?
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 29 Aug 2019, 22:47

Shem wrote:
JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 14:40
If they have refuge under sarcasm snark and trolling it's hard to use word only as something like impeachable.
Is that the country you want to live in?
I’m not sure I want the world where people spend calories trying to figure out how many words absent actions are crimes. I’m not sure I want this world either. I dunno tbh.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 29 Aug 2019, 23:25

thoreau wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 22:38
Aresen wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 22:36
Congratulations, you win a Libertarian Purity Badge* and ten years in the camps.
Do we lose the purity badge if we refer to the camps by the wrong label?
No, it's okay if you call them college campuses.

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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 29 Aug 2019, 23:32

JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 22:47
Shem wrote:
JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 14:40
If they have refuge under sarcasm snark and trolling it's hard to use word only as something like impeachable.
Is that the country you want to live in?
I’m not sure I want the world where people spend calories trying to figure out how many words absent actions are crimes. I’m not sure I want this world either. I dunno tbh.
Just so long as you recognize that tolerating President Internet Troll now means that this is the new normal.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 30 Aug 2019, 02:05

Painboy wrote:
Jennifer wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:23
Painboy wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:15
Shem wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 19:07
JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 14:40
If they have refuge under sarcasm snark and trolling it's hard to use word only as something like impeachable.
Is that the country you want to live in?
What does that even mean?
If I had to guess, I'd say he meant "Do you want to live in a country where leaders can subvert the law by saying 'Just kidding'?"
I would rather have a country with a lot less government in all aspects of life but that's not happening so I have to deal with things as they are. And when it comes to Trump 90% of the time what he says is just him blathering or playing to the crowd. Until it actually turns into a policy push there's no point trying in to divine if what he says actually means anything.
The crowd being a closed door meeting with exec branch officials? This wasn’t something he said at a political rally.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Dangerman » 30 Aug 2019, 10:53

Shem wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 23:32
JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 22:47
Shem wrote:
JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 14:40
If they have refuge under sarcasm snark and trolling it's hard to use word only as something like impeachable.
Is that the country you want to live in?
I’m not sure I want the world where people spend calories trying to figure out how many words absent actions are crimes. I’m not sure I want this world either. I dunno tbh.
Just so long as you recognize that tolerating President Internet Troll now means that this is the new normal.
How would we, here, be intolerant of President Fuck face in a way that did not mean this is the new normal? Nobody here likes him, and despite the arguments that not screaming as loudly as possible on an internet forum is condoning his behavior, I don't think anyone is defending him. Impeachment is a legal matter, and the opinions of the gryllitariat are hardly germane. So what do you want? Our tolerance or intolerance is ephemeral and insubstantial.

How are you in particular not tolerant of him in a way we could emulate?

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 30 Aug 2019, 11:02

Shem wrote:
JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 22:47
Shem wrote:
JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 14:40
If they have refuge under sarcasm snark and trolling it's hard to use word only as something like impeachable.
Is that the country you want to live in?
I’m not sure I want the world where people spend calories trying to figure out how many words absent actions are crimes. I’m not sure I want this world either. I dunno tbh.
Just so long as you recognize that tolerating President Internet Troll now means that this is the new normal.
Aside from the practical matter that you can’t get an impeachment through to removal, my analysis of that problem is lots of people voted for and support PIT. If I say he can’t be that I’m saying they can’t have the outcome they voted for. This is what brinksmanship does - it forces an evaluation of can we live with the new normal vs the cost of dramatic action.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 30 Aug 2019, 11:31

JasonL wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 11:02
lots of people voted for and support PIT. If I say he can’t be that I’m saying they can’t have the outcome they voted for.
Have you ever heard the phrase "A Republic, not a democracy"? There's a lot wrong with the phrase (e.g. it uses the word "republic" in a very different way than most countries do, where republicanism is contrasted with monarchy rather than democracy) but it also encapsulates an essential idea: There are rules above and beyond "A winning coalition of voters can get whatever they want."
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren » 30 Aug 2019, 11:52

thoreau wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 11:31
JasonL wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 11:02
lots of people voted for and support PIT. If I say he can’t be that I’m saying they can’t have the outcome they voted for.
Have you ever heard the phrase "A Republic, not a democracy"? There's a lot wrong with the phrase (e.g. it uses the word "republic" in a very different way than most countries do, where republicanism is contrasted with monarchy rather than democracy) but it also encapsulates an essential idea: There are rules above and beyond "A winning coalition of voters can get whatever they want."
That's wrong. The essential idea is that society is governed by representatives. Usually those representatives are chosen via democratic elections.
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 30 Aug 2019, 12:30

Warren wrote:
thoreau wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 11:31
JasonL wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 11:02
lots of people voted for and support PIT. If I say he can’t be that I’m saying they can’t have the outcome they voted for.
Have you ever heard the phrase "A Republic, not a democracy"? There's a lot wrong with the phrase (e.g. it uses the word "republic" in a very different way than most countries do, where republicanism is contrasted with monarchy rather than democracy) but it also encapsulates an essential idea: There are rules above and beyond "A winning coalition of voters can get whatever they want."
That's wrong. The essential idea is that society is governed by representatives. Usually those representatives are chosen via democratic elections.
The phrase gets used a whole bunch of ways. The concept of representative democracy rather than direct democracy is a trivial one because every functioning democracy is mostly run on the decisions of elected representatives rather than plebiscites. Even California and Switzerland are run primarily on the basis of legislation approved by legislators rather than ballot measures. The ballot measures make the news but the bread and butter of legislation is done by representatives.

The more interesting invocations of the phrase talk about the "Three wolves and two sheep" problem, i.e the majority shouldn't always get what it wants. Usually they take this to mean that rural areas need protection from cities, but urban voters are hardly the only majority in need of checks and rural voters are hardly the only minority in need of protection. Still, at least it gets at the idea that there's more to governance than just the wishes of the winning coalition.

And then there's the concept of republicanism as most of the rest of the world understands it: The opposite of monarchy or personal rule. By that usage the UK is, in principle, not a republic, even though the government operates primarily as a representative democracy. (Brexit, of course, is an outcome of direct democracy, which is funny when you consider that the Americans who are most likely to support it are also the ones most likely to chant "republic, not a democracy!")

Trump, however, with his demands for personal loyalty and his violations of the spirit* of the Emoluments Clause, is the one who regards governance as a personal matter. He is taking the Imperial Presidency on the next step down the road from republicanism to elected monarchy.

*I won't dare say that he's violating the letter of the law. Surely there's a loophole or nuance by which technically all of his apparent improprieties and conflicts of interest are totally legal. But if people want to they can nonetheless go ahead and remind me that none of this is illegal.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 30 Aug 2019, 14:24

To date - the emoluments issue is the one I think might be real deal enough to entertain impeachment over.

Saying stuff isn’t like emoluments.

I get the republic thing but I also feel like we are in a zone where the perceived legitimacy of outcomes is razor thin. I want to avoid using technical means to overturn election results to keep us on the right side of that line.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 30 Aug 2019, 17:34

JasonL wrote:Saying stuff isn’t like emoluments.
Depends what is said and the context.

There is no law that restrains the president from using nuclear weapons or military force. If Trump decides to nuke Guatemala as part of the national emergency invasion from Central America to “send a message” would you just shrug and say, “Welp, he didn’t break a law.”
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 30 Aug 2019, 18:10

Mo wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 17:34
There is no law that restrains the president from using nuclear weapons or military force.
Not sure about nukes, but there are were definitely constraints on military force, specifically the War Powers Resolution., which limit the duration of military activities without Congressional approval. But then Obama declared that the War Powers Resolution doesn't apply to "kinetic military actions", so now it is 100% legal for the President to do anything he wants overseas without Congressional approval.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer » 30 Aug 2019, 18:32

thoreau wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 18:10
Mo wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 17:34
There is no law that restrains the president from using nuclear weapons or military force.
Not sure about nukes, but there are were definitely constraints on military force, specifically the War Powers Resolution., which limit the duration of military activities without Congressional approval. But then Obama declared that the War Powers Resolution doesn't apply to "kinetic military actions", so now it is 100% legal for the President to do anything he wants overseas without Congressional approval.
Also I hate to think what would lead to Trump nuking Guatemala for more than 60 days.
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 30 Aug 2019, 18:44

lunchstealer wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 18:32
Also I hate to think what would lead to Trump nuking Guatemala for more than 60 days.
Bad hombres feed him bad empanadas and he spends the next 60 days tweeting from the toilet.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 30 Aug 2019, 18:57

thoreau wrote:
Mo wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 17:34
There is no law that restrains the president from using nuclear weapons or military force.
Not sure about nukes, but there are were definitely constraints on military force, specifically the War Powers Resolution., which limit the duration of military activities without Congressional approval. But then Obama declared that the War Powers Resolution doesn't apply to "kinetic military actions", so now it is 100% legal for the President to do anything he wants overseas without Congressional approval.
I mean one could order bombers to flatten Guatemala in way less than 60 days if they DGAF about civilian lives.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b » 30 Aug 2019, 19:03

How would you flatten Guatemala while GAF about civilian lives?
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 30 Aug 2019, 20:00

Eric the .5b wrote:
30 Aug 2019, 19:03
How would you flatten Guatemala while GAF about civilian lives?
Pretty easily, when you're willing to be flexible about the exact meaning of "civilian." Remember when official "terrorists" were the only people in Yemen who ever went to wedding parties?
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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