Orange is the new President

User avatar
Highway
Posts: 13304
Joined: 12 May 2011, 00:22
Location: the Electric Ocean

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Highway » 03 Jun 2019, 21:41

The CBO report linked wasn't speaking of an up-front cost to immigration. It was talking about the gross expenditures in Education, Healthcare, and Law Enforcement attributed to unauthorized immigrants, with minor effort given to accounting for the revenue generated by those same people. Perhaps there's another study that describes some sort of 'upfront' cost for immigrants (for perhaps resettlement, transportation, processing?) but that's not this study. It also seems like those costs are relatively trivial. It's not like legal immigrants show up to the US and get a big care package, a healthcare coupon book, and 6-months rent.
"Sharks do not go around challenging people to games of chance like dojo breakers."

User avatar
Pham Nuwen
Posts: 7897
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 02:17

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen » 03 Jun 2019, 21:52

They are trivial. I believe the report said they were modest at best. So calling them "upfront costs" is the sinker here?
Goddamn libertarian message board. Hugh Akston

leave me to my mescaline smoothie in peace, please. dhex

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 4125
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Painboy » 03 Jun 2019, 22:19

The "illegal immigrants are getting free stuff from our system" I think is one of the biggest obstacles to getting people to change their views on immigration any. In my conversations with various more open minded conservatives, even when they're perfectly fine letting in educated immigrants, they still won't support more open immigration because they believe that poorer uneducated ones just suck off the system and are drain on the country.

To my mind it has a lot to do with the whole free rider concept. It just drives people of any political stripe nuts. It doesn't matter even if 95% of people in a program legit need it, the fact that if 5% of the participants might be using it when they don't have a need for it just makes people nuts. They are never satisfied with "that's just the cost of doing business."

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 16006
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 03 Jun 2019, 22:22

Painboy wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 22:19
The "illegal immigrants are getting free stuff from our system" I think is one of the biggest obstacles to getting people to change their views on immigration any. In my conversations with various more open minded conservatives, even when they're perfectly fine letting in educated immigrants, they still won't support more open immigration because they believe that poorer uneducated ones just suck off the system and are drain on the country.
With the Republitarians, it's more that they might convert the USA to socialism and carry other leftist ideas.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
Pham Nuwen
Posts: 7897
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 02:17

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen » 03 Jun 2019, 22:26

Painboy wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 22:19
The "illegal immigrants are getting free stuff from our system" I think is one of the biggest obstacles to getting people to change their views on immigration any. In my conversations with various more open minded conservatives, even when they're perfectly fine letting in educated immigrants, they still won't support more open immigration because they believe that poorer uneducated ones just suck off the system and are drain on the country.

To my mind it has a lot to do with the whole free rider concept. It just drives people of any political stripe nuts. It doesn't matter even if 95% of people in a program legit need it, the fact that if 5% of the participants might be using it when they don't have a need for it just makes people nuts. They are never satisfied with "that's just the cost of doing business."
That's what I run into a lot. I find it's best to simply say something isn't true and show people where you got your info.
Goddamn libertarian message board. Hugh Akston

leave me to my mescaline smoothie in peace, please. dhex

User avatar
lunchstealer
Posts: 17433
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:25
Location: The Local Fluff in the Local Bubble

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer » 04 Jun 2019, 16:39

Painboy wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 22:19
The "illegal immigrants are getting free stuff from our system" I think is one of the biggest obstacles to getting people to change their views on immigration any. In my conversations with various more open minded conservatives, even when they're perfectly fine letting in educated immigrants, they still won't support more open immigration because they believe that poorer uneducated ones just suck off the system and are drain on the country.

To my mind it has a lot to do with the whole free rider concept. It just drives people of any political stripe nuts. It doesn't matter even if 95% of people in a program legit need it, the fact that if 5% of the participants might be using it when they don't have a need for it just makes people nuts. They are never satisfied with "that's just the cost of doing business."
It's really hard to do that in a lot of ways. The left sees it in other circumstances and it drives them equally crazy, they just don't realize that it's a free rider problem. Don't ask me for examples right away because I don't recall where I ran into it recently, but - well some of it is making union dues/membership voluntary. The Union goes to all the trouble of negotiating a good salary and benefits and whatnot, then these scab freeloaders come in and get the benefits from unions' hard-won victories!!!1! But there are some other ones with business that are escaping me right now, where the left tends to see some bit of inequality that's basically a free-rider problem that they're sanguine about in a government program.
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"We can't confirm rumors that Lynndie England is in the running to be Gina Haspel's personal aide." - DAR

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 24217
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 04 Jun 2019, 16:52

Painboy wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 22:19
The "illegal immigrants are getting free stuff from our system" I think is one of the biggest obstacles to getting people to change their views on immigration any. In my conversations with various more open minded conservatives, even when they're perfectly fine letting in educated immigrants, they still won't support more open immigration because they believe that poorer uneducated ones just suck off the system and are drain on the country.

To my mind it has a lot to do with the whole free rider concept. It just drives people of any political stripe nuts. It doesn't matter even if 95% of people in a program legit need it, the fact that if 5% of the participants might be using it when they don't have a need for it just makes people nuts. They are never satisfied with "that's just the cost of doing business."
It's at least part this and also one coalition has a heavy dose of "they will vote democrat".

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 16006
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 04 Jun 2019, 16:59

JasonL wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 16:52
Painboy wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 22:19
The "illegal immigrants are getting free stuff from our system" I think is one of the biggest obstacles to getting people to change their views on immigration any. In my conversations with various more open minded conservatives, even when they're perfectly fine letting in educated immigrants, they still won't support more open immigration because they believe that poorer uneducated ones just suck off the system and are drain on the country.

To my mind it has a lot to do with the whole free rider concept. It just drives people of any political stripe nuts. It doesn't matter even if 95% of people in a program legit need it, the fact that if 5% of the participants might be using it when they don't have a need for it just makes people nuts. They are never satisfied with "that's just the cost of doing business."
It's at least part this and also one coalition has a heavy dose of "they will vote democrat".
The Conservative Party in Canada (mostly) gave up on that a few years back. It seems that a fair number of Indian and Chinese immigrants are quite conservative fiscally.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 24217
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 04 Jun 2019, 17:03

I think it's false here too. Latin America is really Catholic yo.

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13688
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b » 04 Jun 2019, 17:10

JasonL wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 17:03
I think it's false here too. Latin America is really Catholic yo.
GWB recognized that, but even when he was president, his party torpedoed his outreach attempts.

Racism was much more important than long-term planning.


ETA: missed what autocorrect did.
Last edited by Eric the .5b on 04 Jun 2019, 19:52, edited 1 time in total.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28328
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 04 Jun 2019, 17:15

JasonL wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 17:03
I think it's false here too. Latin America is really Catholic yo.
And African Americans have a whole lot of Biblical literalists among them, but they know which party likes them even less than the other one does.

The Blues have plenty to answer for on racial issues, but the Reds have done everything in their power to be even less friendly to non-whites. And this is why the GOP is basically an openly pro-voter-suppression party. They know what they've done and they know what it means for their polling numbers.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 27012
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren » 04 Jun 2019, 17:22

I find the "illegal immigrants are getting free stuff from our system" line kind of disgusting. Like, why should I feel better about naturally born US citizens getting free stuff from our system. I actually have more compassion for someone fleeing some failed state, leaving everyone and everything they've ever known behind to seek a better life here than some entitled indolent American slob.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24708
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 04 Jun 2019, 18:37

thoreau wrote:
JasonL wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 17:03
I think it's false here too. Latin America is really Catholic yo.
And African Americans have a whole lot of Biblical literalists among them, but they know which party likes them even less than the other one does.

The Blues have plenty to answer for on racial issues, but the Reds have done everything in their power to be even less friendly to non-whites. And this is why the GOP is basically an openly pro-voter-suppression party. They know what they've done and they know what it means for their polling numbers.
Somehow all these conversations about how the religious needs to impose their morals and purity on sinner scare a bunch of old black church ladies rather than excite them.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Pham Nuwen
Posts: 7897
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 02:17

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen » 04 Jun 2019, 18:51

Warren wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 17:22
I find the "illegal immigrants are getting free stuff from our system" line kind of disgusting. Like, why should I feel better about naturally born US citizens getting free stuff from our system. I actually have more compassion for someone fleeing some failed state, leaving everyone and everything they've ever known behind to seek a better life here than some entitled indolent American slob.
They think they are only here for the welfare is the line I hear the most.
Goddamn libertarian message board. Hugh Akston

leave me to my mescaline smoothie in peace, please. dhex

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24377
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 04 Jun 2019, 19:01

thoreau wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 17:15
JasonL wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 17:03
I think it's false here too. Latin America is really Catholic yo.
And African Americans have a whole lot of Biblical literalists among them, but they know which party likes them even less than the other one does.

The Blues have plenty to answer for on racial issues, but the Reds have done everything in their power to be even less friendly to non-whites. And this is why the GOP is basically an openly pro-voter-suppression party. They know what they've done and they know what it means for their polling numbers.
Relevant anecdote: for three years now I've lived in a "majority minority" Atlanta suburb, and this region as a whole is FAR more openly religious than anyplace I've lived before. Jeff and I frequently get advertising flyers in the mail or on our door for various local churches and church-related events -- in the week leading up to the end of the school year, two or three different Vacation Bible Schools put pamphlets on our doorknob -- and all the Atlanta area network affiliates air promo commercials for megabux preachers like Creflo Dollar (whose home-base megachurch is not too far away). In other words: this is a very black and very Christian part of the country, far moreso than anyplace I've lived before -- and the locals STILL don't trust the vote-suppressing religious Reds who run the state.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13688
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b » 04 Jun 2019, 19:54

Mo wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 18:37
thoreau wrote:
JasonL wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 17:03
I think it's false here too. Latin America is really Catholic yo.
And African Americans have a whole lot of Biblical literalists among them, but they know which party likes them even less than the other one does.

The Blues have plenty to answer for on racial issues, but the Reds have done everything in their power to be even less friendly to non-whites. And this is why the GOP is basically an openly pro-voter-suppression party. They know what they've done and they know what it means for their polling numbers.
Somehow all these conversations about how the religious needs to impose their morals and purity on sinner scare a bunch of old black church ladies rather than excite them.
Being on the outs of the people loudly saying that, they thus don't fantasize that it'll be their specific morals and purity imposed.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 18838
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 04 Jun 2019, 20:12

thoreau wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 20:36
Old ladies know how to give the most savage burns.

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... the-second
Queen Elizabeth II gave President Trump an abridged first edition of Winston Churchill's "The Second World War" after the president arrived for his first state visit in the United Kingdom on Monday.
Emphasis added
Large Print, I hope, not that it will matter.

I think I could make a reasonable argument that every Tweet Trump has made while in office is in the public domain and therefor collectable into a "Greatest Tweets" anthology. I'm sure Trumpistas would like nothing better to set beside their guns and Bibles on the nightstand than a comforting, reassuring compendium of the man's wit and wisdom.

What do you think we should price them for?

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 7679
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 05 Jun 2019, 00:26

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 20:12
thoreau wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 20:36
Old ladies know how to give the most savage burns.

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... the-second
Queen Elizabeth II gave President Trump an abridged first edition of Winston Churchill's "The Second World War" after the president arrived for his first state visit in the United Kingdom on Monday.
Emphasis added
Large Print, I hope, not that it will matter.

I think I could make a reasonable argument that every Tweet Trump has made while in office is in the public domain and therefor collectable into a "Greatest Tweets" anthology. I'm sure Trumpistas would like nothing better to set beside their guns and Bibles on the nightstand than a comforting, reassuring compendium of the man's wit and wisdom.

What do you think we should price them for?
Well, they paid $50 for Trumpy Bear, so I'd say the sky's the limit.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 16006
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 05 Jun 2019, 00:40

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 20:12
I think I could make a reasonable argument that every Tweet Trump has made while in office is in the public domain and therefor collectable into a "Greatest Tweets" anthology. I'm sure Trumpistas would like nothing better to set beside their guns and Bibles on the nightstand than a comforting, reassuring compendium of the man's wit and wisdom.

What do you think we should price them for?
I don't know what the price should be, but I have several very liberal friends that I'd love to gift one to. (anonymously, of course.) :twisted:
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13688
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 00:49

thoreau wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 20:36
Old ladies know how to give the most savage burns.

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... the-second
Queen Elizabeth II gave President Trump an abridged first edition of Winston Churchill's "The Second World War" after the president arrived for his first state visit in the United Kingdom on Monday.
Emphasis added
That's still ~1000 pages in one volume vs ~2400 in six volumes. That's endlessly more credit than I think anyone with a brain gives the guy, so probably not a burn.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28328
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 05 Jun 2019, 01:01

I was under the impression that gifts given at state visits are meant to be more impressive than enjoyable. The complete edition would seem to be the more proper gift.

Anyway, I'm disappointed that he didn't use his time with the Queen to announce that he was voiding the Treaty of Paris because "No good crooked Ben Franklin made a terrible deal, the worst."

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13688
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 01:02

thoreau wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 01:01
Anyway, I'm disappointed that he didn't use his time with the Queen to announce that he was voiding the Treaty of Paris because "No good crooked Ben Franklin made a terrible deal, the worst."
*snorts* Nice.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 28328
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 05 Jun 2019, 02:14



Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
lunchstealer
Posts: 17433
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:25
Location: The Local Fluff in the Local Bubble

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer » 05 Jun 2019, 05:10

Warren wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 17:22
I find the "illegal immigrants are getting free stuff from our system" line kind of disgusting. Like, why should I feel better about naturally born US citizens getting free stuff from our system. I actually have more compassion for someone fleeing some failed state, leaving everyone and everything they've ever known behind to seek a better life here than some entitled indolent American slob.
:cry:
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"We can't confirm rumors that Lynndie England is in the running to be Gina Haspel's personal aide." - DAR

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 16006
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 05 Jun 2019, 11:25

thoreau wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 02:14


Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk
Did Trump refer to himself as 'your great president'? I mean, Midler would have used it sarcastically, but would Trump catch the sarcasm?
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests