Orange is the new President

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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 01 Jun 2019, 16:58

The U.S. Navy confirmed that all the reports were true and the White House had requested to hide the USS John S. McCain during President Donald Trump’s state visit to Japan. “A request was made to the U.S. Navy to minimize the visibility of USS John S. McCain, however, all ships remained in their normal configuration during the President’s visit,” Rear Adm. Charlie Brown, chief of Navy information, said in a statement. “There were also no intentional efforts to explicitly exclude Sailors assigned to USS John S. McCain.”
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 01 Jun 2019, 17:27

I love the "intentional" and "explicitly" qualifiers in the last sentence. I imagine that there are all sorts of nominally neutral ways that one could reduce the number of people from a particular ship who get to attend an event, or at least get to be in places where attire with the ship name would be clearly visible to the President. Probably things with work assignments, timing of assignments, etc. "OK, we have a bunch of extra work that needs doing today..." "Ooh, tightened security for the Presidential visit means that this area is blocked off, but you can attend the event if you just go via [some other path], don't worry, you should still get there in time for seats, even if not in the front row."
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 01 Jun 2019, 17:31

Ho hum. "No controlling authority...." "No evidence that I did it only because ...." We all know there's no pettiness too shallow for Trump to shrug off, but this isn't even a side-show example of that pettiness or of lackies covering up their lackitude after the fact. It's just business as usual.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Hugh Akston » 01 Jun 2019, 21:57

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 02 Jun 2019, 14:55

Tariff threat against Mexico confirms a deal's not a deal with Trump: Don Pittis

Critics say new border threats a warning that America's word cannot be trusted
Everyone knows individual politicians sometimes fail to keep their word, and like the rest of us, investors seldom count on those promises until they see the commitments fulfilled.

But when an entire country gives its word, businesses generally assume they can count on it. Not so in the era of U.S. President Donald Trump.

On Thursday, Trump announced via Twitter that his administration will impose tariffs on Mexico if it fails to stop migrants from crossing into the U.S. The next day, he tweeted more conditions that seemed to reopen NAFTA negotiations that were settled last September.

Critics say it shows that with Trump in charge, the U.S. is a nation that cannot be trusted. And that makes a difference.
Which begs the question of whether, once Trump is gone, the US can be trusted never to elect someone like him.
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 02 Jun 2019, 15:40

Aresen wrote:
02 Jun 2019, 14:55
Tariff threat against Mexico confirms a deal's not a deal with Trump: Don Pittis

Critics say new border threats a warning that America's word cannot be trusted
Everyone knows individual politicians sometimes fail to keep their word, and like the rest of us, investors seldom count on those promises until they see the commitments fulfilled.

But when an entire country gives its word, businesses generally assume they can count on it. Not so in the era of U.S. President Donald Trump.

On Thursday, Trump announced via Twitter that his administration will impose tariffs on Mexico if it fails to stop migrants from crossing into the U.S. The next day, he tweeted more conditions that seemed to reopen NAFTA negotiations that were settled last September.

Critics say it shows that with Trump in charge, the U.S. is a nation that cannot be trusted. And that makes a difference.
Which begs the question of whether, once Trump is gone, the US can be trusted never to elect someone like him.
Even before this latest idiocy, I've read think-pieces (IIRC in the Economist or some other non-American site) saying that Trump is likely to cause long-term damage to America for exactly that reason: instead of "signing a treaty with 'America,'" it's "signing a treaty with the current POTUS, and who knows whether the next one will honor it?"

[Cue the standard 'Hillary would've been worse because blah blah no I WON'T explain why because it's so self-evidently obvious.']
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Mo
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 02 Jun 2019, 16:01

JCPOA and Paris were not treaties as they were not ratified. TPP was a treaty, but was not yet ratified. Though Congress should stop including, “And the president can decide to leave whenever,” clauses.

What confuses me is the SCOTUS regularly rules that some duly passed law is invalid because it unconstitutionally takes power from the executive to some other branch or party. However, they never rule that a law is invalid because it unconstitutionally moves a power from the legislature to the executive.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Hugh Akston » 02 Jun 2019, 19:13

I mean the United States government could never really be trusted to keep its promises
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Eric the .5b » 02 Jun 2019, 20:51

Mo wrote:
02 Jun 2019, 16:01
JCPOA and Paris were not treaties as they were not ratified. TPP was a treaty, but was not yet ratified. Though Congress should stop including, “And the president can decide to leave whenever,” clauses.
And people in general should stop treating treaties that a president signs in a photo op, but Congress refuses to ratify, as something we're actually part of.

Trump's damage to NAFTA will take a fuckton of work to fix, though.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 02 Jun 2019, 21:12

Hugh Akston wrote:
02 Jun 2019, 19:13
I mean the United States government could never really be trusted to keep its promises
Eric the .5b wrote:
02 Jun 2019, 20:51
Mo wrote:
02 Jun 2019, 16:01
JCPOA and Paris were not treaties as they were not ratified. TPP was a treaty, but was not yet ratified. Though Congress should stop including, “And the president can decide to leave whenever,” clauses.
And people in general should stop treating treaties that a president signs in a photo op, but Congress refuses to ratify, as something we're actually part of.

Trump's damage to NAFTA will take a fuckton of work to fix, though.
Abrogating Son-of-NAFTA, which he negotiated, before it's even ratified is rather exceptional. It takes "You can't trust the USA" to a whole new level.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 02 Jun 2019, 21:58

Yeah, I don't think Mexico is under any more illusions about the man's trustworthiness than the rest of the world. If he's talking, he's lying.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 03 Jun 2019, 14:36

Mulvaney appeared to dismiss those concerns Sunday.

“American consumers will not pay for the burden of these tariffs,” he said, adding that “there’s already a price” in the form of “hundreds of billions of dollars” for immigrants in the country illegally.
Can we get a clinical diagnosis of brain death based on this?

I'm pretty sure that the administration of my university would want the econ department to give a passing grade if a student said that. (Econ 101 is on the list of classes that the administration wants to see pass rates go up in.)

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Highway » 03 Jun 2019, 14:41

I really wonder what these "hundreds of billions of dollars" that 'illegal' immigrants are costing us are from. That seems like a total asspull, and ignores the economic benefit of a class of people that usually don't go around causing trouble.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen » 03 Jun 2019, 15:17

I mean they do have an initial cost. They use schools, hospitals, roads, social programs, etc. But it's more than made up long term as they move up the economic chain.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen » 03 Jun 2019, 15:18

Its definitely not hundreds of billions though.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Hugh Akston » 03 Jun 2019, 15:26

They don't even really need to move up the economic chain. Looking at people as liabilities ignores that every single one of them needs food, clothing, shelter, and a variety of consumer goods which they have to purchase from somebody who pays taxes on every sale.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen » 03 Jun 2019, 15:33

Hugh Akston wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 15:26
They don't even really need to move up the economic chain. Looking at people as liabilities ignores that every single one of them needs food, clothing, shelter, and a variety of consumer goods which they have to purchase from somebody who pays taxes on every sale.
I mean I've seen a cbo report that takes that into account. Still a balance in the red if only by a little.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 03 Jun 2019, 15:35

Highway wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 14:41
I really wonder what these "hundreds of billions of dollars" that 'illegal' immigrants are costing us are from. That seems like a total asspull, and ignores the economic benefit of a class of people that usually don't go around causing trouble.
It's the cost of the armaments the US provides the nasty dictatorships they're running away from.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 03 Jun 2019, 16:34

Pham Nuwen wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 15:33
Hugh Akston wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 15:26
They don't even really need to move up the economic chain. Looking at people as liabilities ignores that every single one of them needs food, clothing, shelter, and a variety of consumer goods which they have to purchase from somebody who pays taxes on every sale.
I mean I've seen a cbo report that takes that into account. Still a balance in the red if only by a little.
Not when you take the social security and payroll taxes they're paying and not seeing a return on into consideration. A friend has social security wages from someone that stole her number to get a job; that person is never going to take any money out even though they put thousands in.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen » 03 Jun 2019, 19:58

Shem wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 16:34
Pham Nuwen wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 15:33
Hugh Akston wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 15:26
They don't even really need to move up the economic chain. Looking at people as liabilities ignores that every single one of them needs food, clothing, shelter, and a variety of consumer goods which they have to purchase from somebody who pays taxes on every sale.
I mean I've seen a cbo report that takes that into account. Still a balance in the red if only by a little.
Not when you take the social security and payroll taxes they're paying and not seeing a return on into consideration. A friend has social security wages from someone that stole her number to get a job; that person is never going to take any money out even though they put thousands in.
My understanding is that's not quantifiable. Link?

This is what I read some time ago. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files ... ration.pdf
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Highway » 03 Jun 2019, 20:16

It's convenient to say that a bunch of stuff is "not quantifiable" and thereby determine that Group X is not paying their way. I'm sure there are plenty of legal resident populations and native-born populations you could apply those same standards to, and come up with similar results. Plus, what group does Law Enforcement make money on? Do the cops bill legal residents (in my understanding, the answer is no, unlike emergency services or even state highway departments)? There's no comparison provided there between the "costs" of illegal immigrants and the "costs" of legal residents with regards to expenditures by law enforcement. Somehow the costs of law enforcement are paid by the taxes collected by the state / county / municipality and feds.

There just aren't that many taxes that you get out of paying because you're undocumented. You own a house, you pay property taxes. You rent, you pay the property taxes through the owner. You buy things at the store, you pay sales tax. You work a job, you pay payroll taxes and income taxes. Somehow I doubt that there are that many people paying under the table for undocumented labor.

The one that I'll agree with them on is the healthcare part. If the one place you can go to get treated is the most expensive place, because they won't ask you about status, then there's going to be a significant loss there. Especially if it's a situation where "you don't get treated until it's an emergency, when it's much more expensive to treat you." That is just a lose situation all around, and isn't limited to undocumented folks.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen » 03 Jun 2019, 20:23

I mean I've read elsewhere that it's not taken into account because they simply don't know how to track it. I felt that was fair.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 03 Jun 2019, 20:36

Old ladies know how to give the most savage burns.

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... the-second
Queen Elizabeth II gave President Trump an abridged first edition of Winston Churchill's "The Second World War" after the president arrived for his first state visit in the United Kingdom on Monday.
Emphasis added
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Highway » 03 Jun 2019, 20:39

Pham Nuwen wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 20:23
I mean I've read elsewhere that it's not taken into account because they simply don't know how to track it. I felt that was fair.
I think it's fair to say "We don't know how to track it, so we really didn't try", but not really fair to say that and then turn around and say "This big number is how much negative this group is putting our governments." It's quietly admitting that it's an apples to kumquats comparison, but then allowing the impression that it's an apples to apples comparison to stand up.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen » 03 Jun 2019, 21:00

Highway wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 20:39
Pham Nuwen wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 20:23
I mean I've read elsewhere that it's not taken into account because they simply don't know how to track it. I felt that was fair.
I think it's fair to say "We don't know how to track it, so we really didn't try", but not really fair to say that and then turn around and say "This big number is how much negative this group is putting our governments." It's quietly admitting that it's an apples to kumquats comparison, but then allowing the impression that it's an apples to apples comparison to stand up.
I'm confused. I mean most of what I have read has stated their was an initial upfront cost to immigration. The long term economic potential of them and their children more than make up for any upfront cost. I don't have any idea how they quantify such things but I tend to take the word of such reports.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/maga ... .html?_r=1
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