Orange is the new President

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Mo
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Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 30 Aug 2018, 00:46

What the fucking fuck. State is just telling 40 year olds, “Sorry, you’re not a citizen”? How the fuck do they think they’re getting away with that? This shit makes me legitimately concerned that my lack of naturalization documents could bite me in the future.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/th ... story.html
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 30 Aug 2018, 01:06

Mo wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 00:46
What the fucking fuck. State is just telling 40 year olds, “Sorry, you’re not a citizen”? How the fuck do they think they’re getting away with that? This shit makes me legitimately concerned that my lack of naturalization documents could bite me in the future.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/th ... story.html
In a statement, the State Department said that it “has not changed policy or practice regarding the adjudication of passport applications,” adding that “the U.S.-Mexico border region happens to be an area of the country where there has been a significant incidence of citizenship fraud.”

But cases identified by The Washington Post and interviews with immigration attorneys suggest a dramatic shift in both passport issuance and immigration enforcement.

In some cases, passport applicants with official U.S. birth certificates are being jailed in immigration detention centers and entered into deportation proceedings. In others, they are stuck in Mexico, their passports suddenly revoked when they tried to reenter the United States. As the Trump administration attempts to reduce both legal and illegal immigration, the government’s treatment of passport applicants in South Texas shows how U.S. citizens are increasingly being swept up by immigration enforcement agencies.
Reading on, it appears this is not new with Trump, but occurred under both Bush and Obama, though State backed off a bit after losing a case in 2009.

However, the number of cases is growing:
But under President Trump, the passport denials and revocations appear to be surging, becoming part of a broader interrogation into the citizenship of people who have lived, voted and worked in the United States for their entire lives.

“We’re seeing these kind of cases skyrocketing,” said Jennifer Correro, an attorney in Houston who is defending dozens of people who have been denied passports.

In its statement, the State Department said that applicants “who have birth certificates filed by a midwife or other birth attendant suspected of having engaged in fraudulent activities, as well as applicants who have both a U.S. and foreign birth certificate, are asked to provide additional documentation establishing they were born in the United States.”

“Individuals who are unable to demonstrate that they were born in the United States are denied issuance of a passport,” the statement said.
I am guessing that it is mainly bigoted bureaucrats who see Trump signalling that they are free to do as they please, though I would not be surprised if there was active encouragement from the top.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Highway » 30 Aug 2018, 07:07

From what I've read, there's definitely active encouragement from above, and it's also a major step up. This "Obama and Bush did it too!" bullshit is just deflection smokescreen. Previous admins would apparently investigate an individual accusation or instance of fraudulent documents (which you'd think would be a good thing to do). Trump nazis use the fact that a midwife admitted to selling a couple of fraudulent documents 30 years ago as a pretext for tossing everyone ever delivered by that midwife out.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 30 Aug 2018, 11:36

And they're operating from a presumption of non-citizenship. I know that this isn't actually a criminal prosecution, so I don't claim to know what the proper burden of proof or whatever might be. But I do know that, to whatever extent they have discretion in how they act, it is illiberal to put the burden on the guy who's been here forever to prove that his birth certificate is real.

You know, like they tried to do with Obama.

(But what's most ironic here is that one of the guys caught up in this worked for the Border Patrol!)
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 30 Aug 2018, 12:00

thoreau wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 11:36
And they're operating from a presumption of non-citizenship. I know that this isn't actually a criminal prosecution, so I don't claim to know what the proper burden of proof or whatever might be. But I do know that, to whatever extent they have discretion in how they act, it is illiberal to put the burden on the guy who's been here forever to prove that his birth certificate is real.
While it's likely the article picked "Juan" because of his military and other service that made him a 'sympathetic victim', I find it astonishing that the bureaucrat who made the decision overlooked that service or that nothing in the rule book said 'take a look at what he's done'. FFS, the guy served three years in the military and was honorably discharged. [I thought US military service gave a person an automatic pass to permanent residency, but that's a side issue.] This seems like stupid cruelty for the sake of showing power.

Specifically on thoreau's point, there should be a 'statute of limitations' on these things. Once you've been here a certain amount of time and haven't broken any laws, you're in. I assume this is part of what the amnesty debate is about, but get real.

Politically, I think that if 'Juan's' case ever came to the attention of the Cheeto-in-Chief, he'd try to blame Congress for not passing his version of the immigration law.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 30 Aug 2018, 16:58

And all these horrible things have come about after Trump's only been in office a year and a half.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 30 Aug 2018, 17:08

Aresen wrote:
Mo wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 00:46
What the fucking fuck. State is just telling 40 year olds, “Sorry, you’re not a citizen”? How the fuck do they think they’re getting away with that? This shit makes me legitimately concerned that my lack of naturalization documents could bite me in the future.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/th ... story.html
In a statement, the State Department said that it “has not changed policy or practice regarding the adjudication of passport applications,” adding that “the U.S.-Mexico border region happens to be an area of the country where there has been a significant incidence of citizenship fraud.”

But cases identified by The Washington Post and interviews with immigration attorneys suggest a dramatic shift in both passport issuance and immigration enforcement.

In some cases, passport applicants with official U.S. birth certificates are being jailed in immigration detention centers and entered into deportation proceedings. In others, they are stuck in Mexico, their passports suddenly revoked when they tried to reenter the United States. As the Trump administration attempts to reduce both legal and illegal immigration, the government’s treatment of passport applicants in South Texas shows how U.S. citizens are increasingly being swept up by immigration enforcement agencies.
Reading on, it appears this is not new with Trump, but occurred under both Bush and Obama, though State backed off a bit after losing a case in 2009.

However, the number of cases is growing:
But under President Trump, the passport denials and revocations appear to be surging, becoming part of a broader interrogation into the citizenship of people who have lived, voted and worked in the United States for their entire lives.

“We’re seeing these kind of cases skyrocketing,” said Jennifer Correro, an attorney in Houston who is defending dozens of people who have been denied passports.

In its statement, the State Department said that applicants “who have birth certificates filed by a midwife or other birth attendant suspected of having engaged in fraudulent activities, as well as applicants who have both a U.S. and foreign birth certificate, are asked to provide additional documentation establishing they were born in the United States.”

“Individuals who are unable to demonstrate that they were born in the United States are denied issuance of a passport,” the statement said.
I am guessing that it is mainly bigoted bureaucrats who see Trump signalling that they are free to do as they please, though I would not be surprised if there was active encouragement from the top.
Also, according to this Slate article, the Obama admin inherited the policy and wound it down in 2009 (which would be their first year) and when the settlement expired they didn’t ramp the policy up. Seems to me it’s pretty much a Republican policy through and through.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... izens.html
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 30 Aug 2018, 18:10

If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 30 Aug 2018, 18:15

Mo wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 17:08
Also, according to this Slate article, the Obama admin inherited the policy and wound it down in 2009 (which would be their first year) and when the settlement expired they didn’t ramp the policy up. Seems to me it’s pretty much a Republican policy through and through.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... izens.html
I got that a bit from the WaPo article. It tempts me to do some Fakenewsing and forge documents showing that DJT is not a natural born US citizen.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren » 30 Aug 2018, 18:17

Number 6 wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 22:31
Ellie wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 20:14
Hugh Akston wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 19:34
Ellie wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 18:21
Hugh Akston wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 16:44
JasonL wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 16:23
Here in the land of megachurches, every sign has anti drug messages and has for the past year or so. KY has an opioid issue, goes the common refrain. Don't let satan in.
They probably say it again just as they're passing out the communion wine.
Southern megachurches don't have WINE! That's papist bullshit. They have little test tubes of grape juice. (No, really.)
Huh. My parents modest-sized Lutheran churches had a choice of wine or juice in little plastic cups. I assume the megachurches fire their Eucharist out of one of those pneumatic t-shirt guns.
If they even bother to HAVE Communion. Seems like most churches in the South don't even have it at all, just Powerpoint singing and a two-hour sermon. Or maybe they trot it out for Easter.

No matter how far my religious beliefs (or lack thereof) stray from my Catholic upbringing, I'll never stop clutching my pearls at the affrontery of thinking you can have church without a Eucharist. BLASPHEMERS.
I've been to a few churches that only do communion a few times a year. One-a rural church that distant family members took me to-passed around a plate of cubes of wonder bread. Nine years of Episcopal School and eight of Jesuit education cried out in my mind, "What the actual fuck?"
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 30 Aug 2018, 18:42

I dunno. I think Wonder Bread is totally appropriate for Communion.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 30 Aug 2018, 19:03

FWIW, it's not only the crazy-evangelical Protestant churches that go for grape juice instead of wine: the [generally liberal and progressive] United Methodist Church I was dragged to as a child also did this. I don't think that was an "anti-alcohol" move so much as a combination of "Grape juice is cheaper than wine, and also the taste is far less likely to inspire little kids to make faces and say 'eeew'." IIRC, Communion was held the first Sunday of every month.

When I was old enough (10 or 11) to be added to the acolyte-duty rotation -- the acolyte was the kid who lit and extinguished the altar candles, passed out and collected the offering plates, and any other ceremonial tasks required that day -- I remember there came a time when I was acolyte on a Communion Sunday, and discovered the big silver-colored tiered tray fitted with miniature shot glasses pre-filled with grape juice was ... not too heavy for me to pick up and carry a short distance, but too heavy for me to pick up and carry for the entire time the minister needed to give Communion to every single person in church that day. (Luckily I was able to devise a work-around: people waiting for Communion lined up/knelt on one side of the altar rail, while the minister and acolyte stood on the other side, so rather than stand up straight beside the minister, I bent my knees a couple of inches just low enough that my arms/wrists could rest on/be supported by the altar rail, which in turn helped hold up the weight of all those glasses and the heavy holding tray.)

Anyway, the acolyte held the tray of grape-juice shot glasses while the minister held half a loaf of unsliced bread, and tore little pieces from inside of it to give to each Communion-recipient, along with a shot glass from the tray.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 31 Aug 2018, 02:26

This makes me wonder what sort of blackmail Trump/Russia has on EPN to make him roll over like a dog for him.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer » 31 Aug 2018, 04:18

Jennifer wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 19:03
FWIW, it's not only the crazy-evangelical Protestant churches that go for grape juice instead of wine: the [generally liberal and progressive] United Methodist Church I was dragged to as a child also did this. I don't think that was an "anti-alcohol" move so much as a combination of "Grape juice is cheaper than wine, and also the taste is far less likely to inspire little kids to make faces and say 'eeew'." IIRC, Communion was held the first Sunday of every month.

When I was old enough (10 or 11) to be added to the acolyte-duty rotation -- the acolyte was the kid who lit and extinguished the altar candles, passed out and collected the offering plates, and any other ceremonial tasks required that day -- I remember there came a time when I was acolyte on a Communion Sunday, and discovered the big silver-colored tiered tray fitted with miniature shot glasses pre-filled with grape juice was ... not too heavy for me to pick up and carry a short distance, but too heavy for me to pick up and carry for the entire time the minister needed to give Communion to every single person in church that day. (Luckily I was able to devise a work-around: people waiting for Communion lined up/knelt on one side of the altar rail, while the minister and acolyte stood on the other side, so rather than stand up straight beside the minister, I bent my knees a couple of inches just low enough that my arms/wrists could rest on/be supported by the altar rail, which in turn helped hold up the weight of all those glasses and the heavy holding tray.)

Anyway, the acolyte held the tray of grape-juice shot glasses while the minister held half a loaf of unsliced bread, and tore little pieces from inside of it to give to each Communion-recipient, along with a shot glass from the tray.
The excuse at my mainstream Presbyterian church was that alcoholics who would be tempted back to drinking by a sip of hard wine could still take part in communion if it were grape juice instead of hard wine.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren » 31 Aug 2018, 12:01

Okay stop me if you've heard this one before. Or skip ahead. Whatever.
I was raised in the Presbyterian church. When we lived in Grand Rapids Michigan, it was the custom of our church that each month (communion was a once a month deal) a different family would serve communion. Which meant they would bake a loaf of bread, buy a bottle of Welch's, and deliver a few prepared remarks before the loaf and juice were passed around. So when in the course of time it fell upon my family, we wanted to do an "authentic" communion with unleavened bread and wine. I remember my father pulling the cork at the alter. This created quite the disturbance. A special meeting of the Elders was called and it was decreed that no alcohol would ever again be served in the Sanctuary.
The bread was also not well received.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by nicole » 31 Aug 2018, 12:05

Hahaha that's funny.

The UCC church my family attended on Sundays also used grape juice in quasi-test tubes and also did Communion only one Sunday per month, but it was chunks of Italian bread that were passed out with the juice.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 31 Aug 2018, 12:07

Warren wrote:
31 Aug 2018, 12:01
Okay stop me if you've heard this one before. Or skip ahead. Whatever.
I was raised in the Presbyterian church. When we lived in Grand Rapids Michigan, it was the custom of our church that each month (communion was a once a month deal) a different family would serve communion. Which meant they would bake a loaf of bread, buy a bottle of Welch's, and deliver a few prepared remarks before the loaf and juice were passed around. So when in the course of time it fell upon my family, we wanted to do an "authentic" communion with unleavened bread and wine. I remember my father pulling the cork at the alter. This created quite the disturbance. A special meeting of the Elders was called and it was decreed that no alcohol would ever again be served in the Sanctuary.
The bread was also not well received.
Did they rewrite the 'approved' versions of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John at a later meeting?
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren » 31 Aug 2018, 12:21

Aresen wrote:
31 Aug 2018, 12:07
Warren wrote:
31 Aug 2018, 12:01
Okay stop me if you've heard this one before. Or skip ahead. Whatever.
I was raised in the Presbyterian church. When we lived in Grand Rapids Michigan, it was the custom of our church that each month (communion was a once a month deal) a different family would serve communion. Which meant they would bake a loaf of bread, buy a bottle of Welch's, and deliver a few prepared remarks before the loaf and juice were passed around. So when in the course of time it fell upon my family, we wanted to do an "authentic" communion with unleavened bread and wine. I remember my father pulling the cork at the alter. This created quite the disturbance. A special meeting of the Elders was called and it was decreed that no alcohol would ever again be served in the Sanctuary.
The bread was also not well received.
Did they rewrite the 'approved' versions of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John at a later meeting?
That's not handled at the local level. But The Good News Bible was the version they liked. I still have the dedicated copy I was presented when I became an official member of the church when I turned 13. If any of you who know the difference between ecclesiastical and evangelical where to ever peer between it's covers, I'm sure the sheer horror of it would erase your mind and leave you a drooling vegetable. The thing is a simplified version of the bible from which all actual thought has been stripped out. The stick figure illustrations are scarily apt. It's like a cult manual.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 31 Aug 2018, 12:47

This child's blood is on Trump's hands.

"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer » 31 Aug 2018, 13:44

I wanna say our wafers were oyster crackers. I also wanna say we only did communion on Christmas and Easter and for confirmations, but I am fuzzy on the whole thing as the last time I was there was probably 1986 or so.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Tuco » 01 Sep 2018, 07:14

thoreau wrote:
31 Aug 2018, 12:47
This child's blood is on Trump's hands.

Sickening. There's also blood on the hands of every one of those son of a bitch petty bureaucrat and ICE officers who shrugged and went along with it. Just doing their job, you know. Gotta pay the bills.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 01 Sep 2018, 11:28

Tuco wrote:
01 Sep 2018, 07:14
thoreau wrote:
31 Aug 2018, 12:47
This child's blood is on Trump's hands.

Sickening. There's also blood on the hands of every one of those son of a bitch petty bureaucrat and ICE officers who shrugged and went along with it. Just doing their job, you know. Gotta pay the bills.
Worse, some are proud of it.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 01 Sep 2018, 13:59

So, while McCain was selfishly sucking up the nation's attention what with his funeral and all, Trump decided to get some of his own back with a Twitter rampage against Canada.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 06 Sep 2018, 11:50

Only the best people.
In the end, Happer was not tapped as Science Advisor by the Trump administration, but E&E News reported Tuesday that he is now a member of the National Security Council.

Happer was previously listed as the director of a group called the “CO2 Coalition,” which has a website that claims that CO2 released from fossil fuels stimulates global plant growth while having no real effect on Earth’s climate. (Both claims are false.) He has also taken to referring to the field of climate science as a “cult movement.”
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/09 ... y-council/

I'm kind of surprised that they didn't appoint a Lysenkoist.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JD » 06 Sep 2018, 13:24

The Guardian, of all papers, had a hilariously low-key take on the anonymous op-ed:
In a tweet on Wednesday evening, Trump went further and simply asked “TREASON?” In a follow up tweet, he insisted: “If the GUTLESS anonymous person does indeed exist, the Times must, for National Security purposes, turn him/her over to government at once!”

Writing an op-ed for the New York Times does not violate any statute in the United States legal code.
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