Orange is the new President

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JasonL
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 11 Aug 2018, 22:30

I’m reminded again in this discussion of Luigi Zingales’ pre election caution that trump’s analog is Berlusconi. This convo is very much that.

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Hugh Akston » 11 Aug 2018, 22:42

thoreau wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 22:10
But some people in this thread (not you) have been offering something that amounts to "Whatever, man, it's all a racket, why get worked up over this?"
No one has made this argument in this thread.
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Painboy
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Painboy » 11 Aug 2018, 23:34

thoreau wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 00:52
If Trump's way of doing things gets normalized--and I'm not just talking about the tweets, nor about Russia, I'm talking about governance via golfing buddy and Emoluments Clause violations--we're one step farther down the road to monarchy. I doubt that any President will become King For Life, but we could get Presidents who are de facto kings for 4-8 years, with Congress as a mere vestigial organ.
This is always how it's been run. Were all Clinton's and Bush's golf buddies a bunch of apolitical nobodies? Of course not, they were other influential people who may or may not have been directly attached to the government.

You seem really stuck on this process thing. How decisions are made really only affects those in the process itself. The consumer (we the voters in this case) only really care about the final product. If Trump was instead working to expand immigration policies and pushing for real free trade policies, and not acting like such an asshat, I highly doubt you and many others would be so critical of how he does things.

Having bounced around from contract to contract in the last decade I've been part of many different production processes. Some that I thought were terrible still shipped strong performing products, while other companies that I thought had much better processes put out products that sometimes performed poorly. While certain processes might not make sense to me, such that I would never want to be a part of it, for others it gets stuff done. Trump's process got him to the presidency. Why would he want to change that?

You also spoke of accountability but I don't see how people aren't accountable here. Whether things go well or not Trump is one who gets the credit or blame at the end of the day for the results of his policies and performance. Why would it matter if some department head screwed something up because he listened to Trump's people versus just making a dumb decision on his own? Trump would be the one taking the heat.

Getting back to the tone of the original story, which is what I was primarily objecting to, it would be very easy to write a pro Trump piece with all of the same elements and facts in that story. It could've been about how Trump has been bringing in outside advocates passionate about improving a moribund agency like the VA. That he wasn't going to get held up by it's painfully slow bureaucracy and bring in new ideas that could improve veteran care. If there is something criminal going on, fine let's charge somebody with something. Until then I just don't think it's productive to continually insinuate every single thing Trump does as some sort of shadowy conspiracy the likes of which have never been seen before.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 12 Aug 2018, 08:12

Golf buddies don’t bother me as a new and bad thing. It’s just an example of “this is a bad president who can’t identify/doesn’t care about competence in his staff”. Emoluments bother me as something that brings us closer not to monarchy but to the sort of corruption you see in Italy and S Korea.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren » 12 Aug 2018, 10:37

JasonL wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 08:12
Golf buddies don’t bother me as a new and bad thing. It’s just an example of “this is a bad president who can’t identify/doesn’t care about competence in his staff”. Emoluments bother me as something that brings us closer not to monarchy but to the sort of corruption you see in Italy and S Korea.
Here is what I hear when you talk
It's okay for the establishment to take shortcuts and serve their own interests at the expense of everyone else. That's what they do. But the disenfranchised must never be allowed to do so lest civilization itself be threatened.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Ellie » 12 Aug 2018, 12:18

I don't get that at all from what JasonL is saying. I definitely don't see how emoluments and the disenfranchised relate. If you have the property or businesses or whatever for emoluments to be an issue you're pretty enfranchised.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren » 12 Aug 2018, 12:34

Ellie wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 12:18
I don't get that at all from what JasonL is saying. I definitely don't see how emoluments and the disenfranchised relate. If you have the property or businesses or whatever for emoluments to be an issue you're pretty enfranchised.
Perhaps "outside the beltway" would work better here. But I'm saying this is a constant theme with Jason.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 12 Aug 2018, 12:46

Whatever constant themes Jason might or might not have, I don't think that he's ever said that The Man should keep rich guys down.
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Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 12 Aug 2018, 14:47

I know this is a theme several take from my commentary but I don’t know how to respond to it. What’s an analog shortcut that I favor for rich people but not poor people. Generally use of the state to take money from some people and give to others is bad. I don’t support corporate welfare as I understand the term. All members of the political class are inescapably suspect because some very high percentage of what they do is taking and giving.

ETA I’m a repeated strong supporter of EITC, food based aid, and other anti poverty programs. I have no interest in using the state to close the gap between people above poverty and Bill Gates.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Warren » 12 Aug 2018, 17:15

JasonL wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 14:47
I’m a repeated strong supporter of EITC, food based aid, and other anti poverty programs.
As do all establishment elitists.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 12 Aug 2018, 17:31

I'm not quite prepared for a universe where Jason is an apologist for the welfare state and a proponent of using regulations to keep real estate developers down. Did I fall into a wormhole? Did someone steal the
Reality Stone from Thanos? Or is Warren experiencing constipation that has backed up all the way to the brain?
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 12 Aug 2018, 18:37

Let it be known that I, like Jason, am an apologist for Big Corn, Big Diabetes, and Guns That Fire When Gently Bumped.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 13 Aug 2018, 00:24

Jadagul wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 22:00
Distrust of the political class probably does encourage corruption, on the margin. Because why shouldn't our guy get his?

Corruption almost certainly encourages distrust of the political class.
I agree it is a self-reinforcing cycle, which is why it is more important to demand that the elites follow the rules.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jadagul » 13 Aug 2018, 04:49

Aresen wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 00:24
Jadagul wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 22:00
Distrust of the political class probably does encourage corruption, on the margin. Because why shouldn't our guy get his?

Corruption almost certainly encourages distrust of the political class.
I agree it is a self-reinforcing cycle, which is why it is more important to demand that the elites follow the rules.
I've said this before, but I think the biggest way the past couple of years have changed my politics is that I think we really need a serious crackdown on white-collar crime.

I understand that/why white collar crime is genuinely more difficult to prosecute than other forms of crime. But I think we have to buckle down and do it.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 13 Aug 2018, 06:40

Jadagul wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 04:49
I've said this before, but I think the biggest way the past couple of years have changed my politics is that I think we really need a serious crackdown on white-collar crime.

I understand that/why white collar crime is genuinely more difficult to prosecute than other forms of crime. But I think we have to buckle down and do it.
I agree with this 100%


As a side note, this Omarosa in the Situation Room thing is one of those things were everyone looks bad:

1) Why is Omarosa bringing recording devices in the Situation Room?
2) Wait, why does Omarosa have Top Secret security clearance?
3) Why is Kelly managing HR disputes in a SCIF?
4) Why do we manage bringing devices into SCIFs on the honor system? You'd think they'd have a metal detector at the very least.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 13 Aug 2018, 08:29

Jadagul wrote:
Aresen wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 00:24
Jadagul wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 22:00
Distrust of the political class probably does encourage corruption, on the margin. Because why shouldn't our guy get his?

Corruption almost certainly encourages distrust of the political class.
I agree it is a self-reinforcing cycle, which is why it is more important to demand that the elites follow the rules.
I've said this before, but I think the biggest way the past couple of years have changed my politics is that I think we really need a serious crackdown on white-collar crime.

I understand that/why white collar crime is genuinely more difficult to prosecute than other forms of crime. But I think we have to buckle down and do it.
What sorts of crimes do you have in mind here that are prominent but not prosecuted? I ask because my takeaways recently have to do with the range of confidence eroding politics that are not criminal per se.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Kolohe » 13 Aug 2018, 08:42

Like, it's likely Manafort would have still be living his best life if he hadn't become the center of the political universe. And it's more that peculiar and particular form the Mueller investigation has unfolded than the fact that he was very prominent for a couple of months in summer 2016.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 13 Aug 2018, 08:48

JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 08:29
Jadagul wrote:
Aresen wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 00:24
Jadagul wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 22:00
Distrust of the political class probably does encourage corruption, on the margin. Because why shouldn't our guy get his?

Corruption almost certainly encourages distrust of the political class.
I agree it is a self-reinforcing cycle, which is why it is more important to demand that the elites follow the rules.
I've said this before, but I think the biggest way the past couple of years have changed my politics is that I think we really need a serious crackdown on white-collar crime.

I understand that/why white collar crime is genuinely more difficult to prosecute than other forms of crime. But I think we have to buckle down and do it.
What sorts of crimes do you have in mind here that are prominent but not prosecuted? I ask because my takeaways recently have to do with the range of confidence eroding politics that are not criminal per se.
Money laundering in real estate. Insider trading.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 13 Aug 2018, 10:41

Mo wrote:
Jadagul wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 04:49
I've said this before, but I think the biggest way the past couple of years have changed my politics is that I think we really need a serious crackdown on white-collar crime.

I understand that/why white collar crime is genuinely more difficult to prosecute than other forms of crime. But I think we have to buckle down and do it.
I agree with this 100%


As a side note, this Omarosa in the Situation Room thing is one of those things were everyone looks bad:

1) Why is Omarosa bringing recording devices in the Situation Room?
2) Wait, why does Omarosa have Top Secret security clearance?
3) Why is Kelly managing HR disputes in a SCIF?
4) Why do we manage bringing devices into SCIFs on the honor system? You'd think they'd have a metal detector at the very least.
Do we have any evidence that this actually happened in the Situation Room?
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 13 Aug 2018, 10:53

thoreau wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 10:41
Mo wrote:
Jadagul wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 04:49
I've said this before, but I think the biggest way the past couple of years have changed my politics is that I think we really need a serious crackdown on white-collar crime.

I understand that/why white collar crime is genuinely more difficult to prosecute than other forms of crime. But I think we have to buckle down and do it.
I agree with this 100%


As a side note, this Omarosa in the Situation Room thing is one of those things were everyone looks bad:

1) Why is Omarosa bringing recording devices in the Situation Room?
2) Wait, why does Omarosa have Top Secret security clearance?
3) Why is Kelly managing HR disputes in a SCIF?
4) Why do we manage bringing devices into SCIFs on the honor system? You'd think they'd have a metal detector at the very least.
Do we have any evidence that this actually happened in the Situation Room?
Comments from official White House and Republican spokespeople.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Kolohe » 13 Aug 2018, 11:32

My best guess is that 'The Situation Room' is actually a series of rooms - a real high level scif (like where you saw the gang watch the Bin Laden raid), a general purpose executive meeting room (which is probably cleared for Secret), and an anteroom or two where people can do admin stuff and standby before getting cleared to go into the 'real' situation room. Kelly took Omarosa into one of these auxiliary rooms. (and my best guess as to why he did that, and not in his own office, was so that Omarosa wouldn't go storming off into the Oval Office which is right next to the Chief of Staff office, if I understand correctly)
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 13 Aug 2018, 11:37

She supposedly tried to do that anyway, so if it's what happened, it was a wise choice.
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 13 Aug 2018, 11:43

Actually, per Executive Producer Order, all White House meeting rooms are named after reality TV stars. The Snookie, Trump, and Анна Чапман rooms were in use, so they did the firing in The Situation Room.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 13 Aug 2018, 11:56

Mo wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 08:48
JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 08:29
Jadagul wrote:
Aresen wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 00:24
Jadagul wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 22:00
Distrust of the political class probably does encourage corruption, on the margin. Because why shouldn't our guy get his?

Corruption almost certainly encourages distrust of the political class.
I agree it is a self-reinforcing cycle, which is why it is more important to demand that the elites follow the rules.
I've said this before, but I think the biggest way the past couple of years have changed my politics is that I think we really need a serious crackdown on white-collar crime.

I understand that/why white collar crime is genuinely more difficult to prosecute than other forms of crime. But I think we have to buckle down and do it.
What sorts of crimes do you have in mind here that are prominent but not prosecuted? I ask because my takeaways recently have to do with the range of confidence eroding politics that are not criminal per se.
Money laundering in real estate. Insider trading.
Wells Fargo getting away with just a fine is another example. At the very least the company should have been broken up and sold off. Instead they got a fine that they'll spend the next however long dickering over until, much like with the Exxon Valdez, inflation makes the amount assessed small by the standards of the year when they'll pay it. There's also the financial crisis. The banks should have been broken up just from a moral hazard perspective. Now the finance and economics caste, as a unit, have zero standing to argue against stuff like student loan bailouts or massively expensive social projects without coming off as raging hypocrites.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

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JasonL
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 13 Aug 2018, 12:26

Shem wrote:
Mo wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 08:48
JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 08:29
Jadagul wrote:
Aresen wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 00:24
Jadagul wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 22:00
Distrust of the political class probably does encourage corruption, on the margin. Because why shouldn't our guy get his?

Corruption almost certainly encourages distrust of the political class.
I agree it is a self-reinforcing cycle, which is why it is more important to demand that the elites follow the rules.
I've said this before, but I think the biggest way the past couple of years have changed my politics is that I think we really need a serious crackdown on white-collar crime.

I understand that/why white collar crime is genuinely more difficult to prosecute than other forms of crime. But I think we have to buckle down and do it.
What sorts of crimes do you have in mind here that are prominent but not prosecuted? I ask because my takeaways recently have to do with the range of confidence eroding politics that are not criminal per se.
Money laundering in real estate. Insider trading.
Wells Fargo getting away with just a fine is another example. At the very least the company should have been broken up and sold off. Instead they got a fine that they'll spend the next however long dickering over until, much like with the Exxon Valdez, inflation makes the amount assessed small by the standards of the year when they'll pay it. There's also the financial crisis. The banks should have been broken up just from a moral hazard perspective. Now the finance and economics caste, as a unit, have zero standing to argue against stuff like student loan bailouts or massively expensive social projects without coming off as raging hypocrites.
I definitely agree with Mo. I agree that actual crimes associated with the financial crisis should have been prosecuted. The larger tapestry of the financial crisis is more like the thing I was mentioning about items that are not crimes per se but which erode trust. I have a nearly infinitely cynical view of the financial crisis which is that the outcome is actually what almost everyone wanted. To wit - people say they don’t want banks to behave that way but they totally do because it supports high real estate valuations. You don’t get real reform because you don’t actually want to constrain lending except at the very worst margins.

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