Orange is the new President

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dhex
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by dhex » 26 Jun 2018, 13:08

Kolohe wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 12:19
dhex wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 09:17
It's kinda weird how so many of them were going to Mexican restaurants.
There's a longstanding tradition in American ethnic/racial relations of treating 'The Help' as a category different from either 'Fellow Human Beings' or 'People That Annoy You'
Truth, but the optics are bonkers.
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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 26 Jun 2018, 13:16

Mo wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 10:39
The demonstrating thing is potentially counterproductive. The not serving admin officials is perfectly kosher. The most morally dubious things is leveraging official position to harass the Red Hen. Also, I missed the fainting couch over this.
I think there is a distinction between 'refusing to accommodate a person you despise when they are in their private lives' and 'refusing to allow someone whose policies you oppose to use your business as a photo-op during a campaign.'
ETA: I also think the counter-productiveness thing is way overblown. I remember when the redneck with the Confederate flag terrorize brown kids ad was going to thrust Ed Gillespie into the governor's mansion last year.
I was thinking less about blowback than escalation. What happens when an alt-right jarhead organizes a flashmob on Nancy Pelosi when she goes somewhere? This could easily turn into a slap-fest.
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Painboy
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Painboy » 26 Jun 2018, 13:47

Can't the restaurant just be content and spit into her food like everyone else?

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Aresen
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 26 Jun 2018, 13:48

Painboy wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 13:47
Can't the restaurant just be content and spit into her food like everyone else?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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Mo
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 26 Jun 2018, 14:17

Aresen wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 13:16
Mo wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 10:39
The demonstrating thing is potentially counterproductive. The not serving admin officials is perfectly kosher. The most morally dubious things is leveraging official position to harass the Red Hen. Also, I missed the fainting couch over this.
I think there is a distinction between 'refusing to accommodate a person you despise when they are in their private lives' and 'refusing to allow someone whose policies you oppose to use your business as a photo-op during a campaign.'
Refusing to serve someone you despise is one of the joys of being the owner of a business. If I owned my own business, I would equally like to refuse business to Richard Spencer and the guy who bullied me when I was growing up.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 26 Jun 2018, 14:35

I think we need to ban restaurants from refusing service to unpleasant people.

I also think that restaurant owners should be able to deduct laxative purchases from their taxes.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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nicole
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by nicole » 26 Jun 2018, 14:38

Mo wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 14:17
Aresen wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 13:16
Mo wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 10:39
The demonstrating thing is potentially counterproductive. The not serving admin officials is perfectly kosher. The most morally dubious things is leveraging official position to harass the Red Hen. Also, I missed the fainting couch over this.
I think there is a distinction between 'refusing to accommodate a person you despise when they are in their private lives' and 'refusing to allow someone whose policies you oppose to use your business as a photo-op during a campaign.'
Refusing to serve someone you despise is one of the joys of being the owner of a business. If I owned my own business, I would equally like to refuse business to Richard Spencer and the guy who bullied me when I was growing up.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 26 Jun 2018, 14:50

Mo wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 14:17
Aresen wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 13:16
Mo wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 10:39
The demonstrating thing is potentially counterproductive. The not serving admin officials is perfectly kosher. The most morally dubious things is leveraging official position to harass the Red Hen. Also, I missed the fainting couch over this.
I think there is a distinction between 'refusing to accommodate a person you despise when they are in their private lives' and 'refusing to allow someone whose policies you oppose to use your business as a photo-op during a campaign.'
Refusing to serve someone you despise is one of the joys of being the owner of a business. If I owned my own business, I would equally like to refuse business to Richard Spencer and the guy who bullied me when I was growing up.
I am not saying that one shouldn't have the right to refuse service to jerks. (Though I do think that is something that could escalate the Kultur War.) The distinction was that, in Biden's case, his proposed visit was anything but a private affair. OTOH, if I'd been the owner in that situation, I'd have used the opportunity to confront Biden with maximum possible snark.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Most people don't realize Stephen King downplayed the horror that is Maine. - Jennifer

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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 26 Jun 2018, 15:09

From what I've read, the Red Hen owner didn't unilaterally decide to kick Sanders out of the restaurant; the staff (which includes a lot of migrant and LGBT people) voted on it. If you're the public apologist for policies designed to hurt various types of people, don't be surprised if said people want to avoid you.
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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 26 Jun 2018, 16:07

Expanding the attack to administration officials might be counterproductive. If it's limited to cabinet-level officials I'd bet money it won't be, but I could be wrong. But, simultaneously arguing that Trump constitutes an existential threat to our democracy that must be responded to, but that we need to maintain civility while we do it, will be counterproductive, and I guarantee that. All those Republicans who applaud your rationality still aren't going to vote for you, and the Independents and non-voters are going to pick up the mixed message and tune you out. You can't simultaneously argue that this is a new internment, but that the new Eichmanns should be allowed to enjoy their strudel in peace.
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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 26 Jun 2018, 16:14

Aresen wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 13:16
I was thinking less about blowback than escalation. What happens when an alt-right jarhead organizes a flashmob on Nancy Pelosi when she goes somewhere? This could easily turn into a slap-fest.
You mean like anti-abortion protesters have been doing forever? With calls to homes in addition to public shaming attempts? The only thing new or eyeroll-inducing about this is the media pretending that it's something that hasn't been happening for at least my entire life, and probably much longer. And the only reason they're doing that is because suddenly it's being extended to people they might want to drink with some day. Out here in the real world, we've been shaming each other for years, and have become adept at mostly ignoring each other. They're just upset they're not immune anymore.
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 26 Jun 2018, 16:18

Possibly relevant blast from the past: in the 1930s, Henry Cadbury of the Society of Friends (Quakers) urged Jews to lay off the anti-Hitler arguing, lest that make the Nazis dislike them even more.


Henry Cadbury presumably meant well when he wrote:By hating Hitler and trying to fight back, Jews are only increasing the severity of this policies against them.

If Jews throughout the world try to instill into the minds of Hitler and his supporters recognition of the ideals for which the race stands, and if Jews appeal to the German sense of justice and the German national conscience, I am sure the problem will be solved more effectively and earlier than otherwise.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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JasonL
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 26 Jun 2018, 16:49

Shem wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 16:07
Expanding the attack to administration officials might be counterproductive. If it's limited to cabinet-level officials I'd bet money it won't be, but I could be wrong. But, simultaneously arguing that Trump constitutes an existential threat to our democracy that must be responded to, but that we need to maintain civility while we do it, will be counterproductive, and I guarantee that. All those Republicans who applaud your rationality still aren't going to vote for you, and the Independents and non-voters are going to pick up the mixed message and tune you out. You can't simultaneously argue that this is a new internment, but that the new Eichmanns should be allowed to enjoy their strudel in peace.
Especially from a camp that constantly calls everyone Eichmanns. It's an escalation of the standard verbal nonsense to the non verbal space and the reaction to that could be bad.

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Shem
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Shem » 26 Jun 2018, 17:38

JasonL wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 16:49
It's an escalation of the standard verbal nonsense to the non verbal space and the reaction to that could be bad.
Well, from a "winning elections" perspective it might be spectacularly successful. It was for Trump, after all. It's just guaranteed to fail unless it's consistent, and "let Eichmann have his strudel" is anything but.
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 26 Jun 2018, 18:08

When Biden was denied service at a restaurant:
—Biden didn't kvetch about it on social media
—Obama didn't either
—none in the media wrote articles about the conservative intolerance of political disagreement and how we should all return to "civility"
—but the GOP applauded
[Embedded tweet from @GOP, saying "Crumb and get it! VA bakery owner declines opportunity to let Biden shop in his store #RomneyRyan2012"]
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 26 Jun 2018, 18:14

It's not quite the same, though, because Biden wanted to go there for a campaign stop (i.e something public) rather than a private dinner.

OTOH, Paul Ryan did make a big deal of appearing with that baker on the campaign trail.

https://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/201 ... yan-rally/
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 26 Jun 2018, 18:33

Point taken.

That said: there are plenty of examples of conservative incivility--and oftimes, the conservative version is based on what people are (gay, female, Mexican,etc.) as opposed to what people do (put kids in concentration camps; hold White House press conferences justifying said camps to the American people and the world....)

IMO, there's a huge difference between "You hate me and seek to deny me civil rights, solely because I'm a redhead" and "I hate you because you seek to deny me civil rights, solely because I'm a redhead." And the idea that the problem stems from my redheaded self being insufficiently nice to people who believe redheads are inherently inferior beings -- is pretty much the same idea behind the "Be nice to Sarah Sanders and Kirstjen Nielsen" brigades.
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fyodor
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by fyodor » 26 Jun 2018, 18:45

Mo wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 10:39
The demonstrating thing is potentially counterproductive. The not serving admin officials is perfectly kosher. The most morally dubious things is leveraging official position to harass the Red Hen. Also, I missed the fainting couch over this.

ETA: I also think the counter-productiveness thing is way overblown. I remember when the redneck with the Confederate flag terrorize brown kids ad was going to thrust Ed Gillespie into the governor's mansion last year.
Wait, is this whataboutism over my dismissal of whataboutism?

And are you responding to me or others, cause I'd say my take on things is hardly fainting nor blown enough in the first place to stand much chance of being overblown.

Look, we could go back and forth over who's the bigger snowflakes all day long, and to what end? My only point is I don't think this is a very good idea, and if it blows over like that movement to not serve Democrats over Obama's silly comment apparently did, then all the better. That's what I'm hoping for and that's my point.

I'll just go on a bit further to question why not serving admin official is any more kosher or less counterproductive than the other? Naturally, I think they have the right to do that, just as folks have the right to protest (though where the line gets crossed from protest to harassment is a vague but important one). That doesn't prove either is a good idea.

ETA: I also feel more of an obligation to care about where this is going than whatabout Republicans/Fox News cause I feel like this is coming from "my" side. Partly because I identify more with Democrats and partly because I definitely agree on the issue.
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

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fyodor
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by fyodor » 26 Jun 2018, 19:17

Mo wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 14:17
Aresen wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 13:16
Mo wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 10:39
The demonstrating thing is potentially counterproductive. The not serving admin officials is perfectly kosher. The most morally dubious things is leveraging official position to harass the Red Hen. Also, I missed the fainting couch over this.
I think there is a distinction between 'refusing to accommodate a person you despise when they are in their private lives' and 'refusing to allow someone whose policies you oppose to use your business as a photo-op during a campaign.'
Refusing to serve someone you despise is one of the joys of being the owner of a business. If I owned my own business, I would equally like to refuse business to Richard Spencer and the guy who bullied me when I was growing up.
Okay, this answers one of my questions. I'd say refuse to serve the bully, sure, but if you take on national politics, be aware of the larger implications. That one's not just about your personal jollies.
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

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fyodor
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by fyodor » 26 Jun 2018, 19:22

Shem wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 17:38
JasonL wrote:
26 Jun 2018, 16:49
It's an escalation of the standard verbal nonsense to the non verbal space and the reaction to that could be bad.
Well, from a "winning elections" perspective it might be spectacularly successful. It was for Trump, after all. It's just guaranteed to fail unless it's consistent, and "let Eichmann have his strudel" is anything but.
Well personally I think the Eichmann comparisons and the existential threat thing is silly anyway, at this point anyway. If Trump starts ignoring judicial decisions and election results, I may feel differently. Regardless, if you really wanna push this and make it keep going, then you really are starting to get into dangerous territory and you'd best be damned sure it's worth it. Oh, and what worked for Trump isn't necessarily going to work for anyone else. And if it does, and if it's going to keep getting ratcheted up? Well, look, if that has to happen, that we have to face it. But um, I do hope we're not really at that point. And actually I don't really think we are.
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

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Mo
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 26 Jun 2018, 23:58

Speaking of Nazi analogies, this Twitter thread is a bit on the nose.

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer » 27 Jun 2018, 01:02

Painboy wrote:Can't the restaurant just be content and spit into her food like everyone else?
That’s a weird typo. The p isn’t even close to the h.
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Mo
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 27 Jun 2018, 11:51

I guess the Secret Service is also there to protect people from hurt fee-fees.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Kolohe
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Kolohe » 27 Jun 2018, 12:00

Eh, I can imagine she's got a lot of threatening emails and other chatter on social media since this stupid thing started.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Pham Nuwen » 27 Jun 2018, 13:17

It's almost like they are afraid of not only their own base but the other parties base ...
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