Orange is the new President

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Rachel
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Rachel » 13 Jan 2018, 14:08

Warren wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 02:33
Mo wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 22:32
It's basically how we got W. If the Clinton administration was as relatively squeaky clean as Obama, Gore would have won in an HW level landslide.
LOL We got W for the same reason we got Trump, Gore was singularly awful. He lost his own state furchristsakes. Clinton's foibles had nothing to do with it.
Agree with Warren.
What bothers me about this is that if he’d said the same thing in prettier language, it wouldn’t be news. You’ve seen this attitude on the left and the right, and this “scandal” is more about a violation of making the subtext text than it is about immigration policy. There is some serious deflection going on in most of, though not all of, the punditariat.
This too. This is the problem with almost every stupid thing Trump says. If he said the same thing in "normal" language, it wouldn't be news, because it would be the same rhetoric politicians on both the right and left have used to make unjust, or unattractive, or costly, or reprehensible, sound like business as usual.
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Jadagul
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jadagul » 13 Jan 2018, 16:39

So this really gets to part of the actual problem here.

Some people say "we should try to let skilled and educated people immigrate" and mean "let's let talented Nigerians immigrate."

And other people say "we should try to let skilled and educated people immigrate" and they mean "let's allow immigration from rich/similar-to-us/white countries."

And this creates a certain amount of plausible deniability in all directions. The people who believe the first thing can pretend the people in the second group are saying the same thing. And vice versa! Most of the people in group B assume that the people in group A are just being codedly racist too.

Trump removes that plausible deniability. So people in group A find themselves having to admit that he's a goddamn racist, which makes them uncomfortable. And then people in group B get confused, because they think he's just saying the same thing everyone was already saying, but less delicately. Rather than realizing that many people weren't trying to be racist in code in the first place.

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lunchstealer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer » 13 Jan 2018, 18:01

Jadagul wrote:So this really gets to part of the actual problem here.

Some people say "we should try to let skilled and educated people immigrate" and mean "let's let talented Nigerians immigrate."

And other people say "we should try to let skilled and educated people immigrate" and they mean "let's allow immigration from rich/similar-to-us/white countries."

And this creates a certain amount of plausible deniability in all directions. The people who believe the first thing can pretend the people in the second group are saying the same thing. And vice versa! Most of the people in group B assume that the people in group A are just being codedly racist too.

Trump removes that plausible deniability. So people in group A find themselves having to admit that he's a goddamn racist, which makes them uncomfortable. And then people in group B get confused, because they think he's just saying the same thing everyone was already saying, but less delicately. Rather than realizing that many people weren't trying to be racist in code in the first place.
I know what to say to that: “Quite Motherfucking True.”
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thoreau
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 13 Jan 2018, 21:14

So much for plans to make a profit off his presidency.

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1kvJpkAzaPkGE

https://www.washingtonian.com/2018/01/1 ... le-remark/

With this kind of PR, the only people profiting from his presidency will be the bankruptcy attorneys.
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Mo
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 13 Jan 2018, 23:46

They are kissing ass by touting prior business decisions.
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 14 Jan 2018, 15:36

Jadagul wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 16:39
So this really gets to part of the actual problem here.

Some people say "we should try to let skilled and educated people immigrate" and mean "let's let talented Nigerians immigrate."

And other people say "we should try to let skilled and educated people immigrate" and they mean "let's allow immigration from rich/similar-to-us/white countries."

And this creates a certain amount of plausible deniability in all directions. The people who believe the first thing can pretend the people in the second group are saying the same thing. And vice versa! Most of the people in group B assume that the people in group A are just being codedly racist too.

Trump removes that plausible deniability. So people in group A find themselves having to admit that he's a goddamn racist, which makes them uncomfortable. And then people in group B get confused, because they think he's just saying the same thing everyone was already saying, but less delicately. Rather than realizing that many people weren't trying to be racist in code in the first place.
For a normal president during normal times I'd surely agree with this analysis. But Trump lost any "plausible deniability" regarding his bigotry before even being elected. His fans and supporters have indeed raised "deniability" to an art form but "plausible?" Nope.
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Jadagul
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jadagul » 14 Jan 2018, 17:27

Jennifer, what do you think "Trump removes this plausible deniability" means?

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 14 Jan 2018, 20:40

Jadagul wrote:
14 Jan 2018, 17:27
Jennifer, what do you think "Trump removes this plausible deniability" means?
That there actually existed some "plausible deniability" to be removed?

Having said that: I re-read your comment and realized I misinterpreted part of it when first I wrote my response--it's the people who pretended their anti-immigration arguments are based on something other than racism who might've lost their deniability thanks to Trump. (Though I'm skeptical on that matter, come to think of it; they'll have no problem telling themselves and their GOP donor friends that Trump the vulgarian doesn't speak for them.)
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Jadagul
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jadagul » 14 Jan 2018, 21:54

The deniability is a bit more complex than that, though.

There are some people, mostly elites, who actually believe more immigration is bad for (mostly) non-racist reasons.

And there are a lot of people who believe immigration is bad for more-or-less racist and/or xenophobic reasons.

And for the most part, these two groups maintain the illusion that they are actually the same group. The anti-immigration elites tell themselves that their popular support is from people who believe the same types of things they do. And the masses think that the elites are actually agreeing with them, just wrapping their beliefs in this weird code of "the phrasing you have to use to express this idea, for some reason".

So when Trump says that African countries are all shitholes, the masses interpret this as "he's saying the same thing the other elites on our side are saying, except without the random phrasing rules. He's telling it like it is." And this forces the elites to confront the fact that the masses are actually being racist.

And then when they object, that shatters the popular illusion that the elites are being just as racist as their supporters.

And this is why the translations/softenings are actually changing things. If Trump had said instead, "I would like to redirect our immigration to be more from first-world countries, because immigrants from low-trust societies can destabilize the high-trust dynamic that we currently but fragile-ly maintain in the US", that would not be drawing the same sort of condemnation. But there's a substantive difference there, not just a difference in phrasing.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 15 Jan 2018, 00:45

It adorable that Tom Cotton thinks he can be president. He's basically Ted Cruz without charm, looks or charisma.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by nicole » 15 Jan 2018, 00:53

Do not fucking jinx us Mo.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 15 Jan 2018, 00:59

Mo wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 00:45
It adorable that Tom Cotton thinks he can be president. He's basically Ted Cruz without charm, looks or charisma.
It took me a while to get that. We're talking imaginary numbers, aren't we?
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Painboy
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Painboy » 15 Jan 2018, 12:51

Jadagul wrote:
14 Jan 2018, 21:54
The deniability is a bit more complex than that, though.

There are some people, mostly elites, who actually believe more immigration is bad for (mostly) non-racist reasons.

And there are a lot of people who believe immigration is bad for more-or-less racist and/or xenophobic reasons.

And for the most part, these two groups maintain the illusion that they are actually the same group. The anti-immigration elites tell themselves that their popular support is from people who believe the same types of things they do. And the masses think that the elites are actually agreeing with them, just wrapping their beliefs in this weird code of "the phrasing you have to use to express this idea, for some reason".

So when Trump says that African countries are all shitholes, the masses interpret this as "he's saying the same thing the other elites on our side are saying, except without the random phrasing rules. He's telling it like it is." And this forces the elites to confront the fact that the masses are actually being racist.

And then when they object, that shatters the popular illusion that the elites are being just as racist as their supporters.

And this is why the translations/softenings are actually changing things. If Trump had said instead, "I would like to redirect our immigration to be more from first-world countries, because immigrants from low-trust societies can destabilize the high-trust dynamic that we currently but fragile-ly maintain in the US", that would not be drawing the same sort of condemnation. But there's a substantive difference there, not just a difference in phrasing.
This is a good summation of my issues with people who want to categorize everyone who is anti-immigration as racist. Like you said there are those that have rational reasons for their beliefs (of which I would disagree with) and there are those that are just bigots.

It's why I think it's counterproductive to try and paint those elites the same way since that just squashes any real debate and turns it all into a culture war clash. Trying to figure out a way to separate them, and expose the bigots, would be a better strategy. I don't pretend to know how to accomplish that but I definitely think it would improve the political climate.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Highway » 15 Jan 2018, 13:05

I'm not nearly as generous, because how do people come to those supposedly rational, non-racist beliefs? Do we take them at their word that racism had nothing at all to do with it, that what they're saying isn't a post-hoc rationalization so that they can tell themselves that they're not racist, when the policies they would prefer have 1) racist roots and 2) racist outcomes?

FWIW, I am coming to believe that the fictitious self-belief that "Oh, I'm not racist" that people tell themselves is one of the main reasons that racism is still a problem. People think being called "racist" is one of the worst things they can be called, so they tie themselves up like pretzels trying to prove they aren't. But everyone is. Everyone's got beliefs and stereotypes about other people, and as long as people are allowed to cover up their ears so that they don't hear about it, actually dealing with those stereotypes and inequalities is going to be impossible. We'd be much better off if people just admitted it, and then we all figure out how and how much to deal with it,
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Dangerman » 15 Jan 2018, 13:32

"I'm not nearly as generous, because how do people come to those supposedly rational, non-racist beliefs?"

The same way people come to oppose gentrification.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Painboy » 15 Jan 2018, 13:34

Highway wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 13:05
I'm not nearly as generous, because how do people come to those supposedly rational, non-racist beliefs? Do we take them at their word that racism had nothing at all to do with it, that what they're saying isn't a post-hoc rationalization so that they can tell themselves that they're not racist, when the policies they would prefer have 1) racist roots and 2) racist outcomes?

FWIW, I am coming to believe that the fictitious self-belief that "Oh, I'm not racist" that people tell themselves is one of the main reasons that racism is still a problem. People think being called "racist" is one of the worst things they can be called, so they tie themselves up like pretzels trying to prove they aren't. But everyone is. Everyone's got beliefs and stereotypes about other people, and as long as people are allowed to cover up their ears so that they don't hear about it, actually dealing with those stereotypes and inequalities is going to be impossible. We'd be much better off if people just admitted it, and then we all figure out how and how much to deal with it,
Admit what though? Everyone has their own definition of racism now. It's a word that's used so much it barely has any definable meaning other than "saying stuff about a race that someone might be insulted by." The other day someone invoked it when someone made a crack about Germans and someone claimed that they were being racist.

I think many, if not most, accusations of racism in anti-immigration circles are more about culture clashes and xenophobia. Like it always has been for all of human history when unfamiliar cultures are pushed together. There wasn't any appreciable racial differences when the Irish and Italians first showed up in waves. Yet they were heavily discriminated against with all kind of crazy stuff written about them. Nowadays everyone looks back at it only for laughs.

If immigrants these days got off the boat, or walked across the border, and immediately started acting like "white middle class" the anti-immigration movements would have much, much less pull, and be far less intense (at least among whites).

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Orange is the new President

Post by JasonL » 15 Jan 2018, 14:28

Isle of Prosperity liberals and those generally seeking a larger redistributive state don’t like immigration for essentially Ehrlichian reasons. Not enough stuff we are running out etc.

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Jadagul
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jadagul » 15 Jan 2018, 16:38

I mean, I actually find it pretty plausible that much of Europe has immigration that is "too high". Because they have large immigrant populations that aren't assimilating, and that causes all sorts of problems.

Now, there are all sorts of other policy reasons that the populations aren't assimilating, and yes, they should fix those. But against the background of otherwise fixed policy, it makes sense to say they shouldn't increase immigration when they're failing to assimilate the immigrants they're already getting.

Now, we don't seem to have that problem---the on-the-ground reality of immigration is different in the US and in Europe. But it's not totally insane to either (1) worry that we're close to the boundary on that, or (2) believe there are other important characteristics that immigrants need to assimilate to and aren't.

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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 15 Jan 2018, 23:26

Talk about government waste. They had a staffer do this instead of go to Amazon and buy these. Do Republicans even know how to capitalism anymore?
Days later, the No. 2 Republican in the House — known for his relentless cultivation of political alliances — bought a plentiful supply of Starbursts and asked a staffer to sort through the pile, placing only those two flavors in a jar. McCarthy made sure his name was on the side of the gift, which was delivered to a grinning Trump, according to a White House official.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by thoreau » 15 Jan 2018, 23:36

Mo wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 23:26
Do Republicans even know how to capitalism anymore?
Did they ever?
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Kolohe » 16 Jan 2018, 06:59

Remember, Amazon is in his mind a part of the fake news media.
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Aresen » 16 Jan 2018, 10:25

Kolohe wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 06:59
Remember, Amazon is in his mind a part of the fake news media.
If he didn't make it up himself, it's fake news.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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Mo
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 16 Jan 2018, 11:16

Wat?!?!? How does someone not "Kirstjen Nielsen" claim they don't know that under oath.

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer » 16 Jan 2018, 20:03

Painboy wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 13:34
If immigrants these days got off the boat, or walked across the border, and immediately started acting like "white middle class" the anti-immigration movements would have much, much less pull, and be far less intense (at least among whites).
What's the non-racist way to demand people act "white middle class", though? I'm thinking of people like Muslim Clock Kid and his family -- if "middle class values" means stuff like "better-than-average education, income, assets, professional status/accomplishment," and also such basic "traditional adult" stuff as "getting married and then having kids and raising them to have middle-class educational and financial values, rather than be childfree" .. Clock Kid's family is a hell of a lot better at the "successful middle-class" bit than I am, but where "white" is concerned they failed so badly their entire damned town included the elected officials went gunning for 'em.

Of course, I'm of the opinion it isn't Clock Kid and his family who were the cause of the problem here; it's the bigoted assholes who went after them, no matter how firmly they insist they're not really motivated by bigotry but instead had valid safety concerns and Think Of The Children and whatnot.
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Mo
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Mo » 16 Jan 2018, 20:18

I think 'white middle class' includes going to church (not mosque or temple), eating American food (not curry and shit) and speaking exclusively unaccented (unless the accent is a local accent) English.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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