Calling 2020 for Entropy

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thoreau
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

Number 6 wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 22:44 Jesus, I forgot about the suborning of war crimes
It's frankly impossible to keep track of everything he does.

Trump has done things that could have gotten other presidents impeached and convicted. But nobody can keep track, so instead of focusing on some particularly attention-worthy thing that he's done, we're running after him for one thing and then another and then another and it just looks like people are trying to get him over everything.

It's the different between a criminal and an outlaw. A criminal committed a crime. There's a thing to focus on and it's bad. (Insert libertarian disclaimers about crime here.) An outlaw is always at odds with the law, and so some people romanticize them. It's not just one thing that you could focus on and condemn, it's a lifestyle. And damn it feels good to be a gangster.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Aresen »

Pham Nuwen wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 00:27 I guess I should put my cards on the table ...

I want him gone because of the oversight issues. You can defy and ignore congressional subpoenas as well as judicial orders. You can lie to everyone including judges and inspectors. You can involve foreign powers overtly now. It's all good so long as you are of a certain party affiliation. He needs to be gone before we end up living in a damn banana republic.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Shem wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 23:28
Painboy wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 21:41
Eric the .5b wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 17:23 Who were the ~200k Americans who died on Obama's or Bush's watch?
C'mon. Nobody in charge was going to be able stop or even change the course of this pandemic barring some sort of preternatural clairvoyance. There was just too many unknowns. And more and more it's being shown government policy has had little effect on the actual numbers. Just because the government passes laws doesn't mean the population is always going to go along with it. Being a "libertarian" forum that should be something everyone here should have some familiarity with.
Is that why all of western europe and Japan have maybe 700 deaths per week and we have over five thousand? Yeah, people were going to die, but saying "nobody could have prevented this" ignores all the places that did something and are now more or less on the other side of this.
It's like he and Warren are competing to make the dumbest "I'm not defending Trump, but...." defences.

Sure, any president would have downplayed the plague. Any president would have confiscated PPE supplies from Blue states. Any president would have done his best to whip his party into opposing simple health measures as a form of political signaling. Any president would praise gun-toting protestors storming state capitols...

... Who fucking believes this?
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

"There have been 2,243 drone strikes in the first two years of the Trump presidency, compared with 1,878 in Mr Obama's eight years in office, according to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, a UK-based think tank."

But, you know, antiwar.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Pham Nuwen wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 00:27 I guess I should put my cards on the table ...

I want him gone because of the oversight issues. You can defy and ignore congressional subpoenas as well as judicial orders. You can lie to everyone including judges and inspectors. You can involve foreign powers overtly now. It's all good so long as you are of a certain party affiliation. He needs to be gone before we end up living in a damn banana republic.
How does getting rid of Trump solve any of that?
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

Warren wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 10:41
Pham Nuwen wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 00:27 I guess I should put my cards on the table ...

I want him gone because of the oversight issues. You can defy and ignore congressional subpoenas as well as judicial orders. You can lie to everyone including judges and inspectors. You can involve foreign powers overtly now. It's all good so long as you are of a certain party affiliation. He needs to be gone before we end up living in a damn banana republic.
How does getting rid of Trump solve any of that?
Presidents need to know that this shit doesn't get you reelected.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Warren »

thoreau wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 11:20
Warren wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 10:41
Pham Nuwen wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 00:27 I guess I should put my cards on the table ...

I want him gone because of the oversight issues. You can defy and ignore congressional subpoenas as well as judicial orders. You can lie to everyone including judges and inspectors. You can involve foreign powers overtly now. It's all good so long as you are of a certain party affiliation. He needs to be gone before we end up living in a damn banana republic.
How does getting rid of Trump solve any of that?
Presidents need to know that this shit doesn't get you reelected.
1 Get reelected
2 Banana Republic
3 Profit
Nobody, men included, wants a world where men treat women with the same respect they show to other men. - thoreau
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

"Why put pressure on the wound? It doesn't repair the massive hole that's gushing blood."
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

Anyway, what matters is that Trump is exactly the same as every other president ever. We know this because the two parties are exactly the same, because if they were sometimes different then a librul might be right about something.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer »

thoreau wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 12:23 Anyway, what matters is that Trump is exactly the same as every other president ever.
AND that Hillary would have been worse.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

Jennifer wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 12:29
thoreau wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 12:23 Anyway, what matters is that Trump is exactly the same as every other president ever.
AND that Hillary would have been worse.
Well, duh. Because a librul can't be right about anything.
" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

Jennifer wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 12:29
thoreau wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 12:23 Anyway, what matters is that Trump is exactly the same as every other president ever.
AND that Hillary would have been worse.
And that whatever happens, it's bad to vote for Biden, even if he's no different from Trump.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

Eric the .5b wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 13:17
Jennifer wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 12:29
thoreau wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 12:23 Anyway, what matters is that Trump is exactly the same as every other president ever.
AND that Hillary would have been worse.
And that whatever happens, it's bad to vote for Biden, even if he's no different from Trump.
Well, duh. If Biden is no different from Trump then voting for him falsely implies that he is better and libruls are right about something.
" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by lunchstealer »

Pham Nuwen wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 00:27 I guess I should put my cards on the table ...

I want him gone because of the oversight issues. You can defy and ignore congressional subpoenas as well as judicial orders. You can lie to everyone including judges and inspectors. You can involve foreign powers overtly now. It's all good so long as you are of a certain party affiliation. He needs to be gone before we end up living in a damn banana republic.
This is my thinking as well.

We need to undo the damage that Trump is doing to the rule of law and basic ethical norms.

I know the objection that previous administrations have found ways around those rules, but they did so in a way that preserved at least a good chunk of their spirit. Trump is burning them to the ground, firing any Inspector General who approves a whistleblower report, very openly interfering with investigations into potentially serious electoral misconduct when they're his people, openly using the 'I'm the best person for this job, so it's in America's national security and international relations interests that I get reelected' argument to justify using the power of the government to punish political opponents, while again interfering with what should be hands-off functions of the Justice Department. Hell, he threatened the career of the BROTHER of a guy who testified before congress.

Sure, he didn't start the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Syria. But he vetoed Congressional efforts to curtail Saudi war crimes in Yemen, came within a hair's breadth of starting a war with Iran, which could be a damn sight more scary than with Iraq, and who knows what Russia and China would do with America attacking yet another major balance-of-power player and oil producer in the Middle East and linking up our two client states of Iraq and Afghanistan.

And ultimately, if he does manage to turn this into a tinpot dictatorship, there's absolutely no chance that the guy who replaces him when he croaks will be as restrained, foreign-adventure-wise.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Pham Nuwen »

Warren wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 11:25
thoreau wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 11:20
Warren wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 10:41
Pham Nuwen wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 00:27 I guess I should put my cards on the table ...

I want him gone because of the oversight issues. You can defy and ignore congressional subpoenas as well as judicial orders. You can lie to everyone including judges and inspectors. You can involve foreign powers overtly now. It's all good so long as you are of a certain party affiliation. He needs to be gone before we end up living in a damn banana republic.
How does getting rid of Trump solve any of that?
Presidents need to know that this shit doesn't get you reelected.
1 Get reelected
2 Banana Republic
3 Profit
I'm not to worried about Dictator for Life Trump. I don't think that would be a thing. I'm worried about Dictator for Life Trump Jr. I'm worried about Dictator for Life AOC. I'm worried about Dictator for Life Anybody. I understand you're in the middle of or ongoing existential crisis concerning yourself, the Gryll, and the world. But dude. How are you hand waving away the rule of law like you are??? You're not at the end and everything shouldn't just end if only because it gives you a perverse sense of petty pleasure watching it burn down.

"A child who isn't embraced by the village will burn it down to feel it's warmth". Is that where you are now? Fuck.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Painboy »

Shem wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 23:28
Painboy wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 21:41
Eric the .5b wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 17:23 Who were the ~200k Americans who died on Obama's or Bush's watch?
C'mon. Nobody in charge was going to be able stop or even change the course of this pandemic barring some sort of preternatural clairvoyance. There was just too many unknowns. And more and more it's being shown government policy has had little effect on the actual numbers. Just because the government passes laws doesn't mean the population is always going to go along with it. Being a "libertarian" forum that should be something everyone here should have some familiarity with.
Is that why all of western europe and Japan have maybe 700 deaths per week and we have over five thousand? Yeah, people were going to die, but saying "nobody could have prevented this" ignores all the places that did something and are now more or less on the other side of this.
There are very likely variables that we haven't discovered yet. There's plenty of research that still needs to be done. And it's not even over yet. Even aside from that there are very different environments culturally. Sweden didn't do much and they generally seemed to have come out fine despite some early issues with their elderly. As I said before it doesn't matter what policy you implement if the necessary number of people don't follow it. There are also real limits on what Trump could even do.

Also trying to hang all the deaths on him is ridiculous. Is Merkal responsible for 9000+ deaths? Is Macron responsible for 30000+ deaths? Cuomo is probably the only person who you could argue is directly responsible for more deaths due to his baffling order to keep sending sick people to old folks homes.

Just because Trump is an idiot and didn't appear to take it seriously doesn't mean there was actually anything he could do about it.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by dhex »

Not saying it's just the flu may have helped.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

There's absolutely nothing he could have done that would have made a difference. Because if there were then it would mean that there's a reason to vote against him and there cannot be a reason to vote against him. The two parties are exactly the same in all ways. Just as 2+2=5, trade wars are good and easy to win, and standardized tests have no predictive validity.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by lunchstealer »

thoreau wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 19:12 There's absolutely nothing he could have done that would have made a difference. Because if there were then it would mean that there's a reason to vote against him and there cannot be a reason to vote against him. The two parties are exactly the same in all ways. Just as 2+2=5, trade wars are good and easy to win, and standardized tests have no predictive validity.
3 + 4 = 5
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

Entropy, ennui, who the fuck cares?

You don't need to know math in order to do physics.

Trade wars are good and easy to win.

Standardized tests have no predictive validity.

Cognitive ability doesn't exist.

Sergeant Raymond Shaw is the bravest, warmest, kindest human being I've ever met.

Donald Trump is no worse than Joe Biden.

Anybody who votes for Biden is pure evil.

Nobody on the gryll supports Trump.

All of these things are true because they have to be true.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Warren »

Pham Nuwen wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 17:17
Warren wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 11:25
thoreau wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 11:20
Warren wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 10:41
Pham Nuwen wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 00:27 I guess I should put my cards on the table ...

I want him gone because of the oversight issues. You can defy and ignore congressional subpoenas as well as judicial orders. You can lie to everyone including judges and inspectors. You can involve foreign powers overtly now. It's all good so long as you are of a certain party affiliation. He needs to be gone before we end up living in a damn banana republic.
How does getting rid of Trump solve any of that?
Presidents need to know that this shit doesn't get you reelected.
1 Get reelected
2 Banana Republic
3 Profit
I'm not to worried about Dictator for Life Trump. I don't think that would be a thing. I'm worried about Dictator for Life Trump Jr. I'm worried about Dictator for Life AOC. I'm worried about Dictator for Life Anybody. I understand you're in the middle of or ongoing existential crisis concerning yourself, the Gryll, and the world. But dude. How are you hand waving away the rule of law like you are??? You're not at the end and everything shouldn't just end if only because it gives you a perverse sense of petty pleasure watching it burn down.

"A child who isn't embraced by the village will burn it down to feel it's warmth". Is that where you are now? Fuck.
Dude. I'm not hand waving anything. I'm worried about the same things you are. It will give me no pleasure to watch it burn.
I just don't see how Queen Kamala isn't more of the same.
Nobody, men included, wants a world where men treat women with the same respect they show to other men. - thoreau
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Pham Nuwen »

She's a woman and she's black. That's enough for a large share of the public. I'm fairly sure we're going to see 2015 gridlock.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Shem »

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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

This is not different from anything that Obama, Clinton, or Carter did. I now this because the two parties are exactly the same in all ways.
" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Hugh Akston »

Well if he said it then he's definitely going to do it.
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