Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Andrew
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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nicole wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 14:21
nicole wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 12:09
The rising influence of Lasch and other communitarians tracks with a broader shift away from the “socially liberal, fiscally conservative” position popular with young right-wingers during the Obama years, and toward a newfound social conservatism tied to a form of class critique. Many of the people I spoke to said they had been libertarians in college—one called libertarianism “a way of announcing that you’re contrarian and a right-winger but that you’re totally cool with the way that sex works in the American upper-middle class”—but have since moved right on social issues. Charles Fain Lehman, a 25-year-old writer and editor for the Washington Free Beacon, described a disillusionment with “freedom as quote-unquote self-actualization.” There is, he said, a “a strong realization” that “it actually makes people quite miserable.”

“Look,” said one editor at a conservative publication, “it’s no secret that this shift on the young right is heavily male. A lot of us just want nice, simple, ordinary lives—lives like our parents lived—and the dating market is not conducive to that at all. I have a lot of friends who are just horrified by what they encounter in the dating market, and there’s an economic dimension to that, too, since houses cost way too much money and we’re all renters and nobody’s moving in with their girlfriends any time soon.” He added, “and you don’t have to be a traditionalist Catholic to think that, because I’m creeped out by those guys, too.”
I keep coming back to this passage, which fascinates me with its vagueness and euphemism. What is "the way that sex works in the American upper-middle class"? My superficial reading was of connotations of promiscuity, but, uh, I think you'll find plenty of that among poor people? (I generally find that when I read stuff about these guys, poor people don't really exist in their mental worlds, because they're always saying things like "no one has kids anymore.") What is horrifying about the dating market, specifically? What is horrifying about the dating market in this economic dimension? I mean, is it being confronted by a bunch of SJW slogans in girls' Tinder profiles, or them being sluts, or what? Why can't you move in with your girlfriend into an apartment, which, btw, would save lots of money?
I've been thinking about this (for apparently two weeks). Here is what I've come with, roughly in descending order of importance.

1. What the AEI guy said. Most of the guys raising these complaints are around 25 and recently out of college. They don't have serious knowledge of all the arguments the right was making in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. None of this is really new.

2. Again, most of the guys raising these complaints are around 25 and recently out of college. For many guys, that's a rough time to be dating. Women in their mid-20s are being chased by guys from 25-55, and enough of them are interested in older guys that the competition is fierce. This is exacerbated in big cities by the sex ratio of singles in the 18-40 group being strongly male (data that's a few years out of date). It also probably looks worse than it is because they are shifting from college and being surrounded by women their own age to the workplace in a city where they are most certainly not surrounded by single women their own age.

3. Along the lines of 2, I have doubts about how many of the guys are putting in the work to make themselves the best possible version of themselves. They probably have the expectation that a degree + well-paying tech job in a big city should make them a shoo-in, when the reality is that is only table stakes (given the demographics and competition).

4a. I think the dating market is getting slightly weird. As online/app dating becomes more and more common, those who can't compete on the superficial levels that apps select for have a tougher time. One's charm/charisma can be that of Bill Clinton, but it doesn't matter if your profile is never seen because search filters have been applied that screen out everyone under 6' (for the most obvious example).

4b. Also, there seems to be a mismatch between what women expect and the men who are actually out there. My brother does the dating app thing, and his stories about this are remarkable. He's mid-30s, 6', in shape, has interesting hobbies, has a PhD, a 6-figure job, and no debt, but he's still had multiple women be incredibly shitty to him (in person, not just digitally) for not making enough money, not having a luxury car, not traveling enough, not being enough into trendy-hobby-of-the-moment, etc. And he's not chasing 24-year-old supermodels, he's trying to find a woman around his age.

4c. App dating has probably made factors that have always existed in the dating market more visible. Tall, attractive, and high-status guys have always gotten more attention from women than the average guy, and the average woman has always gotten more attention from men than vice versa. Nothing new about either of those facts, but now it's easy to compare the different success levels different people have in dating.

I suspect 4abc combined with 2 is what they mean when they say the dating market is horrifying. I don't know what they mean by the economic dimension, but I assume they mean that a single-income household with a stay-at-home wife is no longer a realistic expectation, and well duh. I don't know what is being referenced with "the way sex works for the upper middle class." As you say, poor people have plenty of sex.

I also don't see what they think God-Emperor Trump would be able to do about most of this.
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Mo
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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I would actually say that dating apps exacerbate some of those issues. Back when you met people in person, there were things you may have thought was not ideal or worth pursuing to be bearable because the rest of the package was great and you spoke for an hour at a friends birthday party or at a bar or some shit. Now you’re screening way earlier on on a lot of stupid stuff. My wife wanted to marry a Catholic, if we met online she would have swiped left, instead we were introduced by a mutual friend at a bar after her brothers’ wedding reception.
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JasonL
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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The "women rating men" chart here is something I puzzle over and it is one more thing that makes me glad I'm not a market participant.

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginal ... ating.html

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Mo wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 09:45
I would actually say that dating apps exacerbate some of those issues. Back when you met people in person, there were things you may have thought was not ideal or worth pursuing to be bearable because the rest of the package was great and you spoke for an hour at a friends birthday party or at a bar or some shit. Now you’re screening way earlier on on a lot of stupid stuff. My wife wanted to marry a Catholic, if we met online she would have swiped left, instead we were introduced by a mutual friend at a bar after her brothers’ wedding reception.
I agree completely. That's what I was trying to get at with 4a.
JasonL wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 10:30
The "women rating men" chart here is something I puzzle over and it is one more thing that makes me glad I'm not a market participant.

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginal ... ating.html
There is definitely something weird going on along those lines, but that chart is old OkCupid data (2009, I believe). It doesn't stretch my imagination to believe that men on OkCupid in 2009 were perhaps less attractive on average than all men overall. More recent data would be nice to have (where participation has become more mainstream), but all the dating apps are mostly owned by the same company now, and they keep all that data under wraps.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Hugh Akston »

Andrew wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 09:03
4b. Also, there seems to be a mismatch between what women expect and the men who are actually out there. My brother does the dating app thing, and his stories about this are remarkable. He's mid-30s, 6', in shape, has interesting hobbies, has a PhD, a 6-figure job, and no debt, but he's still had multiple women be incredibly shitty to him (in person, not just digitally) for not making enough money, not having a luxury car, not traveling enough, not being enough into trendy-hobby-of-the-moment, etc. And he's not chasing 24-year-old supermodels, he's trying to find a woman around his age.
Meanwhile my bff is in his mid-30s, sub-6, skinny but not athletic, average looking, has fairly basic hobbies for a millennial hipster, an MFA, a 5-figure job, no car, and a reasonable amount of debt for his cohort. When he has been on the apps in DC and NYC (markets where money and status would presumably matter the most), he has multiple dates with multiple women per week, which have led to two long-term relationships and one ill-considered marriage.
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Mo
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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They’re probably fishing from different ends of the class pool. MFA guy is getting the girls who don’t care about money, PhD guy is.
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Jadagul
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Hm. So I probably fall in between those two test cases. And on the one hand, I don't generally have a ton of trouble.

But on the other hand, I've had surprisingly bad luck with _online dating_. All but one of my, like, real relationships have come from in-person meeting; the successful online dating relationship was with someone where we were both pretty explicitly saying "I'm not looking for a solid relationship match, just a fuckbuddy." (And then it turned out we had enough in common to get on really well, if not enough in common to make it work long-term, which was obvious to both of us from the beginning.)

I've been having a bit more success with online dating lately. But I also have the weird thing where there are a couple of very specific things I want and offer, and I'm pretty compelling to people who want those specific weird things.

Also, apparently it's odd that I'm in a position to regularly meet eligible partners during my regular social life? I keep hearing about how you just can't do that, and I meet a new real prospect like once a month and get involved with one in one way or another like once a year.

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Where do you meet these people?
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Dancing, mostly.

This past Saturday I had some great dances with this super cute girl who's finishing up a Materials Science PhD at Caltech, and is super close with one of my other dance friends (whom I flirted with a bit but who isn't interested.) And we've been chatting back and forth on Facebook. Obviously no idea if she's interested, or if we're particularly compatible, but I'm gonna find out.

And she's the one I'm thinking about _right now_, but I meet someone like this about once a month. And then sometimes we are compatible and do date. (And sometimes we're only sorta compatible and it's a terrible fucking idea, but that's a different story.)

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Painboy »

Andrew wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 11:12
Mo wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 09:45
I would actually say that dating apps exacerbate some of those issues. Back when you met people in person, there were things you may have thought was not ideal or worth pursuing to be bearable because the rest of the package was great and you spoke for an hour at a friends birthday party or at a bar or some shit. Now you’re screening way earlier on on a lot of stupid stuff. My wife wanted to marry a Catholic, if we met online she would have swiped left, instead we were introduced by a mutual friend at a bar after her brothers’ wedding reception.
I agree completely. That's what I was trying to get at with 4a.
JasonL wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 10:30
The "women rating men" chart here is something I puzzle over and it is one more thing that makes me glad I'm not a market participant.

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginal ... ating.html
There is definitely something weird going on along those lines, but that chart is old OkCupid data (2009, I believe). It doesn't stretch my imagination to believe that men on OkCupid in 2009 were perhaps less attractive on average than all men overall. More recent data would be nice to have (where participation has become more mainstream), but all the dating apps are mostly owned by the same company now, and they keep all that data under wraps.
I was meaning to post that study actually and just forgot. It has some interesting trends and conclusions. They seem to think with the combination of women with careers and online dating women have for the first time, possibly in human history, have the upper hand in dating. Primarily due to a combination of extremely low physical/social risk. They also believe that may contribute to the lower marriage and divorce rates. It's very easy for a woman to just bail on a relationship if she feels she has other options.

I myself just started Tinder a month or so ago. Nothing so far as I'm still trying to figure out the meta.* Granted I find I have very little passion in it and have just been mechanically going through the motions each day. I also can't tell if you have to spend the $30 bucks a month for the stuff they keep dangling in your face. Although it does seem a little cheap to grouse over so little money if there's a possibility for a match. I think I'm just conditioned to avoid significant subscription fees where ever possible.

*Yes, I'm a ridiculous caricature of an INT-J sometimes.

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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You definitely don't need to pay money to get matches on Tinder. I don't know how much easier the money makes things.

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Jadagul wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 16:33
Dancing, mostly.

This past Saturday I had some great dances with this super cute girl who's finishing up a Materials Science PhD at Caltech, and is super close with one of my other dance friends (whom I flirted with a bit but who isn't interested.) And we've been chatting back and forth on Facebook. Obviously no idea if she's interested, or if we're particularly compatible, but I'm gonna find out.

And she's the one I'm thinking about _right now_, but I meet someone like this about once a month. And then sometimes we are compatible and do date. (And sometimes we're only sorta compatible and it's a terrible fucking idea, but that's a different story.)
So yeah that is odd because you enjoy a hobby that a) draws a more favorable ratio of women to men, and b) involves a degree of pairing off. I don't imagine that most men go dancing regularly, or if they do it is specifically for the purpose of finding a hookup. So you're in a rarefied field to begin with.
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Jadagul
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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I did say it's "apparently odd".

I mean, I also meet people at friends' parties. And at my parties. It's _also_ apparently weird that I regularly have thirty people over to my house. And my friends do the same thing. (And a lot of these friends are dance friends, and the parties have a lot of dance friends. But not entirely dance friends!)

And I think I put more time and energy than most people into creating and maintaining social connections.

I was looking at the possibility of taking a job in NYC earlier this year. (I got rejected, so it's not happening.) But I was asking a friend who'd moved there what he thought about the dating scene. And one of his comments was that in NYC, basically all socialization and meeting people happens out at bars, and so takes money. But in Los Angeles you can meet people at house parties that your friends through; there are fewer of those in NYC because no one has the space.

But that reflects a shared assumption that our friends are throwing house parties full of people and you can meet people there. Which apparently is not terribly universal.

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Jadagul wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 16:33
Dancing, mostly.
How shocking that you have better luck than average getting dates while doing well for yourself in a sport that skews heavily female.

Also, I've met you in real life. I have no trouble believing your online dating experiences were tire fires in comparison to real life interaction. You are much, much, much less weird-seeming in person.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by JasonL »

I get how supply demand works for pretty 20 something women folk. I don't get why there isn't a fairly obvious recalibration after some short period where other people date other people and that's that. How can you hold such a high reserve wage if you've, er, never earned that wage?

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Hugh Akston »

Shem wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 22:27
Jadagul wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 16:33
Dancing, mostly.
How shocking that you have better luck than average getting dates while doing well for yourself in a sport that skews heavily female.

Also, I've met you in real life. I have no trouble believing your online dating experiences were tire fires in comparison to real life interaction. You are much, much, much less weird-seeming in person.
Image
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Shem wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 22:27
Jadagul wrote:
23 Feb 2020, 16:33
Dancing, mostly.
How shocking that you have better luck than average getting dates while doing well for yourself in a sport that skews heavily female.

Also, I've met you in real life. I have no trouble believing your online dating experiences were tire fires in comparison to real life interaction. You are much, much, much less weird-seeming in person.
That's actually surprising to me (the second bit, not the first). I feel like I self-censor _way_ more online than I do in real life.

Maybe I'm censoring the normal bits, because they seem boring?

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Is Tom Cotton proposing that we bomb China because of the coronavirus? Tom Cotton is the scariest potential future GOP candidate. Thank god he completely lacks charisma.

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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He's gonna fuck a bat
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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I AM THE DARKNESS! *in deep grizzled speak yo*
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Image
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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If the pandemic weren't happening, we'd all be talking about Vermeule today

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Bad ideas never die, they just get repackaged every generation.

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Finally, unlike legal liberalism, common-good constitutionalism does not suffer from a horror of political domination and hierarchy, because it sees that law is parental, a wise teacher and an inculcator of good habits. Just authority in rulers can be exercised for the good of subjects, if necessary even against the subjects’ own perceptions of what is best for them—perceptions that may change over time anyway, as the law teaches, habituates, and re-forms them. Subjects will come to thank the ruler whose legal strictures, possibly experienced at first as coercive, encourage subjects to form more authentic desires for the individual and common goods, better habits, and beliefs that better track and promote communal well-being.
Man if you're gonna crib your shit from a novel, at least make it a novel that everyone didn't read in high school.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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He keeps using the words rulers and subjects. :roll: What happened to representatives? I guess he jumped over to our timeline from one in which the revolution never happened or failed, or one in which we created our own monarchy.
a recognition that all legislation is necessarily founded on some substantive conception of morality
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA pull my other one.
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