Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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JasonL
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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I totally believe that poll in the sense that it is measuring point in time sentiment. The committed have to have a narrative for themselves to justify ignoring all the stuff so far. That narrative is persecution and survival of democracy itself in the face of media and left elites trying to nullify the will of the people. He's their guy, riding dinosaurs in the face of the enemy. What's important is the uniquely pernicious nature of the enemy. You'd get a mirror image of "worst political candidates in history" being led by Hillary or Biden or Obama.

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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JasonL wrote:
03 Dec 2019, 11:15
I totally believe that poll in the sense that it is measuring point in time sentiment. The committed have to have a narrative for themselves to justify ignoring all the stuff so far. That narrative is persecution and survival of democracy itself in the face of media and left elites trying to nullify the will of the people. He's their guy, riding dinosaurs in the face of the enemy. What's important is the uniquely pernicious nature of the enemy. You'd get a mirror image of "worst political candidates in history" being led by Hillary or Biden or Obama.
I think you're on it there. I'm assuming you encounter that mindset in the wild. I know I have. Just last week while shopping for a washer/dryer set at Lowes I heard one guy eager to strike up a conversation with someone he knew say exactly that. "The more the Democrats and the media try to get Trump the more I want to support him."
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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long-ish Park MacDougald on the Straussians

(they are tiny babies)
The rising influence of Lasch and other communitarians tracks with a broader shift away from the “socially liberal, fiscally conservative” position popular with young right-wingers during the Obama years, and toward a newfound social conservatism tied to a form of class critique. Many of the people I spoke to said they had been libertarians in college—one called libertarianism “a way of announcing that you’re contrarian and a right-winger but that you’re totally cool with the way that sex works in the American upper-middle class”—but have since moved right on social issues. Charles Fain Lehman, a 25-year-old writer and editor for the Washington Free Beacon, described a disillusionment with “freedom as quote-unquote self-actualization.” There is, he said, a “a strong realization” that “it actually makes people quite miserable.”

“Look,” said one editor at a conservative publication, “it’s no secret that this shift on the young right is heavily male. A lot of us just want nice, simple, ordinary lives—lives like our parents lived—and the dating market is not conducive to that at all. I have a lot of friends who are just horrified by what they encounter in the dating market, and there’s an economic dimension to that, too, since houses cost way too much money and we’re all renters and nobody’s moving in with their girlfriends any time soon.” He added, “and you don’t have to be a traditionalist Catholic to think that, because I’m creeped out by those guys, too.”
the west coast/claremont side be like
Matthew J. Peterson, Claremont’s vice president of education and a founding editor of The American Mind, told me that there is an “emerging coalition” over “traditional morality,” albeit cast in terms of “civilizational health. A lot of these kids are saying, well, I may not be religious, but I’m looking around at the internet and everything I see and it’s disgusting and we need some kind of order and discipline.” In policy terms, he floated restrictions on pornography and payday lending.

Williams was even more aggressive. He told me that Claremont plans to open a “Center for the American Way of Life” in Washington this quarter, which plans “to talk frankly in a way that some of the legacy institutions seem reluctant to do about some of the domestic regime threats and what we think those are, such as identity politics and aggressive multiculturalist liberalism.” He pointed me to an article by Arthur Milikh in the current issue of National Affairs calling for an aggressive federal crackdown on universities as an example of the kind of policy the new think tank would get behind, explaining that “higher education and ed schools really are madrassas of anti-Americanism.”
and also like
Poulos explained that his project at The American Mind has three elements: preserving the American regime, preserving human control over the machines, and preserving Americans as the type of people who can execute on the first two tasks. “Read The New York Times or turn on Netflix for the latest quote-unquote comedy special and it’s about being chronically depressed,” Poulos told me. “I’ve seen so many young people tantalized by this official fantasy of, you gotta move to one of the five or six big American cities and live a life of autonomy and personal creation and all the doors will be open to you, and if you don’t, you will be insignificant and interchangeable and obscure. And so people move there! And they blow their 20s and 30s ‘navigating’ that environment, and what does that entail? Living in a luxury microapartment and drinking the same $20 Negronis that everyone else is drinking and grinding through the same three or four dating apps gradually getting psychosexually compromised in the way that everyone else does. And it takes away the very autonomy that was the one big selling point. And my concern is that people in those generations that have been affected that way are not as attuned to the excellence of human vitality in the way they need to be to look at all these bots and say, yeah well, it’s still amazing to be human.”
whereas i am now so old i agree with the AEI guy
This new, more populist conservatism has received only mixed support from the larger party. For some, the new right simply doesn’t amount to much. Matthew Continetti, a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, said that “the young people who are driving this weren’t actually around during the ‘dead consensus.’ They’re in their mid- or late-20s, and their political memories begin with Trump. So a lot of energy is spent figuring Trump out, when in reality a lot of what he does is bring debates to the fore that have been going on a long time.”
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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In policy terms, he floated restrictions on pornography and payday lending.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Insanity. According to GOP:
•The FBI is in a conspiracy
•The CIA is in a conspiracy
•The DOJ is in a conspiracy
•The Purple Heart winning Lt Col is in a conspiracy

BUT

The draft dodging compulsive liar w/10 associates in prison is truthful
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Jennifer wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 15:32

Insanity. According to GOP:
•The FBI is in a conspiracy
•The CIA is in a conspiracy
•The DOJ is in a conspiracy
•The Purple Heart winning Lt Col is in a conspiracy

BUT

The draft dodging compulsive liar w/10 associates in prison is truthful
🤦🏽‍♂️
Weh, Duh! It's obvious: He's not part of THE SYSTEM.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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I really wish people would stop criticizing Trump for dodging the draft. Avoiding compulsory government service is the duty of every free person.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Hugh Akston wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 15:38
I really wish people would stop criticizing Trump for dodging the draft. Avoiding compulsory government service is the duty of every free person.
It's not the draft dodging I mind. It's the chickenhawkery.

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Hugh Akston wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 15:38
I really wish people would stop criticizing Trump for dodging the draft. Avoiding compulsory government service is the duty of every free person.
I wouldn't criticize him if he'd own it. If he stood up and said, "Avoiding compulsory government service is the duty of every free person", I'd salute him for that, but his viewpoint seems to be closer to "I'm special, but the rest of you suckers can go get killed."
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Jennifer »

JD wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 15:46
Hugh Akston wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 15:38
I really wish people would stop criticizing Trump for dodging the draft. Avoiding compulsory government service is the duty of every free person.
I wouldn't criticize him if he'd own it. If he stood up and said, "Avoiding compulsory government service is the duty of every free person", I'd salute him for that, but his viewpoint seems to be closer to "I'm special, but the rest of you suckers can go get killed."
Exactly.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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fair
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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JD wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 15:46
Hugh Akston wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 15:38
I really wish people would stop criticizing Trump for dodging the draft. Avoiding compulsory government service is the duty of every free person.
I wouldn't criticize him if he'd own it. If he stood up and said, "Avoiding compulsory government service is the duty of every free person", I'd salute him for that, but his viewpoint seems to be closer to "I'm special, but the rest of you suckers can go get killed."
Yeah, the Muhammad Ali path is the best path.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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nicole wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 12:09
long-ish Park MacDougald on the Straussians
Sometimes I spend enough time hanging out over at BoingBoing that I start to think "hmmm, maybe I *am* actually a conservative?" and then it just takes just two columns in two days (this and the Douthat decadence column) to completely disabuse me of this notion. It's not that I don't share *some* of the same anxieties, but the analysis, reaction and prescription from conservatives are always just bonkers to me.
A lot of us just want nice, simple, ordinary lives—lives like our parents lived—
Paging Douthat and his "vital, engaged" culture. How this vision of conservatism isn't just as escapist as a drug fueled night at a disco escapes me.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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If you actually have the power to withdraw U.S. military from insane forever wars and don't do it, you've forfeited any claim to the justice of your own opting out.

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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So the Straussians: the guys who are looking for simple ordinary lives, who want affordable real estate, who are concerned about vulgarity on the internet, who are morally opposed to porn, who are concerned about politics built around identity, who are down on people from big cities, who build their populist politics on a class critique. Who did they vote for in 2016 and who will they be voting for in 2020?
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Hugh Akston wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 12:04
So the Straussians: the guys who are looking for simple ordinary lives, who want affordable real estate, who are concerned about vulgarity on the internet, who are morally opposed to porn, who are concerned about politics built around identity, who are down on people from big cities, who build their populist politics on a class critique. Who did they vote for in 2016 and who will they be voting for in 2020?
Does it matter? Support your answer.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

Post by Hugh Akston »

Warren wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 13:38
Hugh Akston wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 12:04
So the Straussians: the guys who are looking for simple ordinary lives, who want affordable real estate, who are concerned about vulgarity on the internet, who are morally opposed to porn, who are concerned about politics built around identity, who are down on people from big cities, who build their populist politics on a class critique. Who did they vote for in 2016 and who will they be voting for in 2020?
Does it matter? Support your answer.
You are really testing the limits of your "don't explain the joke" thing
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Team Warren. If I even knew what a 'Straussian' was.

(Does my first guess have to be 'Viennese Composer Fan?')
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Aresen wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 13:54
Team Warren. If I even knew what a 'Straussian' was.

(Does my first guess have to be 'Viennese Composer Fan?')
Leo, not Richard. Basically, the intellectual father of paleo-conservatism.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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the article that nicole linked to yesterday does a pretty good job of explaining it?
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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nicole wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 12:09
The rising influence of Lasch and other communitarians tracks with a broader shift away from the “socially liberal, fiscally conservative” position popular with young right-wingers during the Obama years, and toward a newfound social conservatism tied to a form of class critique. Many of the people I spoke to said they had been libertarians in college—one called libertarianism “a way of announcing that you’re contrarian and a right-winger but that you’re totally cool with the way that sex works in the American upper-middle class”—but have since moved right on social issues. Charles Fain Lehman, a 25-year-old writer and editor for the Washington Free Beacon, described a disillusionment with “freedom as quote-unquote self-actualization.” There is, he said, a “a strong realization” that “it actually makes people quite miserable.”

“Look,” said one editor at a conservative publication, “it’s no secret that this shift on the young right is heavily male. A lot of us just want nice, simple, ordinary lives—lives like our parents lived—and the dating market is not conducive to that at all. I have a lot of friends who are just horrified by what they encounter in the dating market, and there’s an economic dimension to that, too, since houses cost way too much money and we’re all renters and nobody’s moving in with their girlfriends any time soon.” He added, “and you don’t have to be a traditionalist Catholic to think that, because I’m creeped out by those guys, too.”
I keep coming back to this passage, which fascinates me with its vagueness and euphemism. What is "the way that sex works in the American upper-middle class"? My superficial reading was of connotations of promiscuity, but, uh, I think you'll find plenty of that among poor people? (I generally find that when I read stuff about these guys, poor people don't really exist in their mental worlds, because they're always saying things like "no one has kids anymore.") What is horrifying about the dating market, specifically? What is horrifying about the dating market in this economic dimension? I mean, is it being confronted by a bunch of SJW slogans in girls' Tinder profiles, or them being sluts, or what? Why can't you move in with your girlfriend into an apartment, which, btw, would save lots of money?
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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I cannot fathom what their motive might be, but I'm sure it isn't a corrupt motive.

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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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nicole wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 14:21
nicole wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 12:09
The rising influence of Lasch and other communitarians tracks with a broader shift away from the “socially liberal, fiscally conservative” position popular with young right-wingers during the Obama years, and toward a newfound social conservatism tied to a form of class critique. Many of the people I spoke to said they had been libertarians in college—one called libertarianism “a way of announcing that you’re contrarian and a right-winger but that you’re totally cool with the way that sex works in the American upper-middle class”—but have since moved right on social issues. Charles Fain Lehman, a 25-year-old writer and editor for the Washington Free Beacon, described a disillusionment with “freedom as quote-unquote self-actualization.” There is, he said, a “a strong realization” that “it actually makes people quite miserable.”

“Look,” said one editor at a conservative publication, “it’s no secret that this shift on the young right is heavily male. A lot of us just want nice, simple, ordinary lives—lives like our parents lived—and the dating market is not conducive to that at all. I have a lot of friends who are just horrified by what they encounter in the dating market, and there’s an economic dimension to that, too, since houses cost way too much money and we’re all renters and nobody’s moving in with their girlfriends any time soon.” He added, “and you don’t have to be a traditionalist Catholic to think that, because I’m creeped out by those guys, too.”
I keep coming back to this passage, which fascinates me with its vagueness and euphemism. What is "the way that sex works in the American upper-middle class"? My superficial reading was of connotations of promiscuity, but, uh, I think you'll find plenty of that among poor people? (I generally find that when I read stuff about these guys, poor people don't really exist in their mental worlds, because they're always saying things like "no one has kids anymore.") What is horrifying about the dating market, specifically? What is horrifying about the dating market in this economic dimension? I mean, is it being confronted by a bunch of SJW slogans in girls' Tinder profiles, or them being sluts, or what? Why can't you move in with your girlfriend into an apartment, which, btw, would save lots of money?
Yeah that was a head-scratcher for me as well. If I synthesize it with other things I've seen in the trad/basement troll space it basically reads as "The sexual revolution has failed because everybody is miserable," which is a thin veneer for "the sexual revolution has failed because women are all promiscuous now but still none of them will sleep with me."
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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I was assuming, coming right after "lives like our parents lived", that he meant that women were too feminist now, and that the guys he knew were horrified by how women nowadays expect to have a career and bodily autonomy and expect men to help with the cleaning and diaper changing and such. And it makes people unhappy because the woman's expectation in this new paradigm aren't met, and the man didn't want a new paradigm anyway, and having to negotiate on the fly makes people miserable.
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Re: Whither the GOP? (post-Trump edition)

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Hugh Akston wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 14:48
nicole wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 14:21
nicole wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 12:09
The rising influence of Lasch and other communitarians tracks with a broader shift away from the “socially liberal, fiscally conservative” position popular with young right-wingers during the Obama years, and toward a newfound social conservatism tied to a form of class critique. Many of the people I spoke to said they had been libertarians in college—one called libertarianism “a way of announcing that you’re contrarian and a right-winger but that you’re totally cool with the way that sex works in the American upper-middle class”—but have since moved right on social issues. Charles Fain Lehman, a 25-year-old writer and editor for the Washington Free Beacon, described a disillusionment with “freedom as quote-unquote self-actualization.” There is, he said, a “a strong realization” that “it actually makes people quite miserable.”

“Look,” said one editor at a conservative publication, “it’s no secret that this shift on the young right is heavily male. A lot of us just want nice, simple, ordinary lives—lives like our parents lived—and the dating market is not conducive to that at all. I have a lot of friends who are just horrified by what they encounter in the dating market, and there’s an economic dimension to that, too, since houses cost way too much money and we’re all renters and nobody’s moving in with their girlfriends any time soon.” He added, “and you don’t have to be a traditionalist Catholic to think that, because I’m creeped out by those guys, too.”
I keep coming back to this passage, which fascinates me with its vagueness and euphemism. What is "the way that sex works in the American upper-middle class"? My superficial reading was of connotations of promiscuity, but, uh, I think you'll find plenty of that among poor people? (I generally find that when I read stuff about these guys, poor people don't really exist in their mental worlds, because they're always saying things like "no one has kids anymore.") What is horrifying about the dating market, specifically? What is horrifying about the dating market in this economic dimension? I mean, is it being confronted by a bunch of SJW slogans in girls' Tinder profiles, or them being sluts, or what? Why can't you move in with your girlfriend into an apartment, which, btw, would save lots of money?
Yeah that was a head-scratcher for me as well. If I synthesize it with other things I've seen in the trad/basement troll space it basically reads as "The sexual revolution has failed because everybody is miserable," which is a thin veneer for "the sexual revolution has failed because women are all promiscuous now but still none of them will sleep with me."
They want to marry sentient doormats in the shape of sex bots, which is why there's that thing about needing to control machines.
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