Brexit: what say ye?

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Aresen
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen »

Ellie wrote:
08 Nov 2019, 14:15
Mo wrote:
31 Oct 2019, 19:37
I would support the Trump clan not going to jail for crimes, but their punishment being for them to only be able to reside in cities where he received >60% of the vote.
Given how much he apparently avoids having lunch with his supporters, that would be a punishment indeed!

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Aresen
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen »

I was just checking my Google News UK feed and saw the following headlines about the December 12 election:
The Daily Mail wrote:Labour support collapses across UK
The Telegraph wrote:The implosion of Labour is a historic milestone in our politics
The Guardian wrote:Survey: Tory poll lead over Labour drops by four points
It's how you spin it that counts.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by dead_elvis »

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Kolohe
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Kolohe »

lunchstealer wrote:
03 Nov 2019, 17:15
thoreau wrote:
03 Nov 2019, 16:57
They played War Pigs for his entrance. Whoever made that decision deserves a medal.
When Trump stepped into the Garden floor, shortly before the beginning of the 10 p.m. main card, he was met with some undeniable boos, but also, some cheering, which—mixed with a sound system loudly blasting licks of AC/DC’s “Back in Black,” then Black Sabbath’s “War Pigs” (someone is going to get a talking-to)—made the whole thing feel frantic, less like the arrival of a Head of State, and more like a disputed heavyweight rumbling into battle.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-presid ... 1572808526
A friend of a friend was big in the College Republicans at USC* when Dan Quayle, at the peak of his "potatoe" this-guy-is-a-buffoonish-airhead troubles in the 1992 campaign, made a campaign stop there. The friend-of-a-friend had a CD of Souza marches, because of course a College Republican would have a CD of Souza marches, which they decided to use as the ambient music prior to Quayle's speech. Being very familiar with the CD, he knew its track order, and it was finishing one march as Quayle prepared to walk out to greet the audience. The CD's owner panicked and said, "You have to skip the next track!" but the guy was all, "Oh no this is a great American march!" and so it was that Dan Quayle came onstage to the "Liberty Bell March".



* ETA the east coast one, not the west coast one
The Vice President has is own song, fwiw

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Mo
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

I’m going to slide this here because I’m not making a dedicated thread for Johnson v Corbyn v Johnson 2019.

This ad is hilarious because despite being a capitalist hellscape, the US has government run post offices, rail and (in many/most municipalities) utilities. And in socialist Britain, they don’t.

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Hugh Akston »

Also no one except idiots have ever claimed that shareholders provide some kind of service. They provide capital, and they want return on that investment. Sort of like, oh I don't know, people who buy sovereign debt.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren »

Mo wrote:
07 Dec 2019, 17:32
I’m going to slide this here because I’m not making a dedicated thread for Johnson v Corbyn v Johnson 2019.

This ad is hilarious because despite being a capitalist hellscape, the US has government run post offices, rail and (in many/most municipalities) utilities. And in socialist Britain, they don’t.

WTF? So what are the additional fees beyond paying for your tickets, and putting a stamp on the envelope (BTW do TVs still need a tax stamp in the UK)?
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Mo
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

This article rings me as true. I know there are principled reasons why US elections can't be this way, but elections here are so much better. I mean you end up with weird shit like Jeremy Corbyn being a millstone around his party's neck, but that seems like a useful price to pay if Labour wants to be stupid.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... elections/
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Eric the .5b »

There's really not much in that article that sounds better, to me. It's 2019, so who gives a shit about radio or tv commercials? I don't want assholes from Teams Red or Blue coming to my door to bother me. I don't want to vote for some party machine that chooses which literal pig-fucker will actually be in power.

I'd like a media that gave politicians a hard time, but I can't help noticing that even with that, the ever-so-more informed British electorate still then votes for the teams that put those shitheads in power. And the shitty prime ministers that everyone professes to hate after-the-fact can stay in power for upwards of a decade, like Thatcher and Blair.

(Hell, we'll probably be rid of Trump in fewer years—whether by trial, ballot, cholesterol, or civil war—than Boris Johnson will be Prime Minister.)
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Warren
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren »

Eric the .5b wrote:
11 Dec 2019, 08:17
There's really not much in that article that sounds better, to me. It's 2019, so who gives a shit about radio or tv commercials? I don't want assholes from Teams Red or Blue coming to my door to bother me. I don't want to vote for some party machine that chooses which literal pig-fucker will actually be in power.

I'd like a media that gave politicians a hard time, but I can't help noticing that even with that, the ever-so-more informed British electorate still then votes for the teams that put those shitheads in power. And the shitty prime ministers that everyone professes to hate after-the-fact can stay in power for upwards of a decade, like Thatcher and Blair.

(Hell, we'll probably be rid of Trump in fewer years—whether by trial, ballot, cholesterol, or civil war—than Boris Johnson will be Prime Minister.)
Yeah
Political parties have more power? FUCK THAT
No free speech/free press? FUCK THAT
The media has more influence? FUCK THAT
The result is a well-informed populace, vigorous political debate, and a free and fair election.
Pull the other one.
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JD
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by JD »

(I know this is in the "Opinions" section but) When a piece begins "voters are fully politically literate" and then he goes on to say "Wild West, free-market system" in the next paragraph, I know I'm reading a very slanted piece. Honestly, almost everything he describes sounds undemocratic and designed to restrict choice. I do think there are some advantages to a parliamentary system, but this whole thing is really ripe for a John Oliver-style parody: "In the US, voting is for the individual and political campaigning is entirely unregulated, which is why the government is dominated by two major parties that trade power back and forth. In the UK, the situation is completely different: the party is pre-eminent and political speech is tightly controlled, which is why the government is dominated by two major parties that trade power back and forth..."

(That said, they do a much better with minor parties than we do.)
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau »

All I know is that two years is way too long for a presidential campaign. Other countries run analogous campaigns in less time. Surely there must be ways to move in that direction.
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Shem
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Shem »

Kill cable news.
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Jennifer
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Jennifer »

Shem wrote:
11 Dec 2019, 12:03
Kill cable news.
Or bring back the fairness doctrine.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren »

thoreau wrote:
11 Dec 2019, 11:01
All I know is that two years is way too long for a presidential campaign. Other countries run analogous campaigns in less time. Surely there must be ways to move in that direction.
There is! And they did away with it! The party in power had five years to call for an election. And then there would only be like a month or two of campaigning.
Does this give more power to the incumbent party? Of course. But I don't know that it gives them any more power than they already have with fixed term elections.
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thoreau
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau »

Shem wrote:
11 Dec 2019, 12:03
Kill cable news.
"Paging Tucker Carlson! You're wanted in the showers!"
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Mo
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

Warren wrote:
thoreau wrote:
11 Dec 2019, 11:01
All I know is that two years is way too long for a presidential campaign. Other countries run analogous campaigns in less time. Surely there must be ways to move in that direction.
There is! And they did away with it! The party in power had five years to call for an election. And then there would only be like a month or two of campaigning.
Does this give more power to the incumbent party? Of course. But I don't know that it gives them any more power than they already have with fixed term elections.
No they didn’t because of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren »

That's what I'm sayin
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Aresen
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen »

Prior to declaring himself/herself, a candidate must serve the first six months of the election year in the Eastasia War Zone on frontline duty. (There's always a war in Eastasia.)

Either that, or the candidate must have won the Mural Crown.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Eric the .5b »

It's not the UK, but the seemingly-endless reign of Netanyahu is another reason I'm ice-cold on parliamentary systems right now. They seem to have some of the worst features of old-style political machines.

Contra Thoreau, I'd rather have literally constant campaigning than some parties dedicated to putting one particular fuckhead in power every chance they get. Imagine the GOP dedicated to putting a younger Trump in the White House every time they had a majority.

(And fuck the "oh, the political landscape would be completely different if we were parliamentary" noise. We'd still have the same people, the same politicians, the same interest groups, etc. Maybe it's be called the MAGA Party or something, but it'd be a very similar shit storm.)
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau »

I agree that this is not about parliamentary vs presidential systems. We didn't always have 2+ years of presidential campaigning, and there are other presidential systems that manage to do without that. It's a political culture thing that has changed before and I hope it changes again.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by JD »

thoreau wrote:
11 Dec 2019, 16:23
I agree that this is not about parliamentary vs presidential systems. We didn't always have 2+ years of presidential campaigning, and there are other presidential systems that manage to do without that. It's a political culture thing that has changed before and I hope it changes again.
I also think that a lot of this comes down to specifics of political culture. For example, take the State of the Union address. The Constitutional definition of the event is really skeletal and unspecific. From 1801 to 1913, the President didn't even make the address in person, instead sending a written version to be read by a clerk. There was no such thing as a "rebuttal to the SotU" until 1966. Yet it's evolved into this grandstanding spectacle where the President crows about how great he is and the other party raspberries him and insists everything is terrible thanks to the terrible President.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Painboy »

I'm a big proponent of a hybrid system where just the House is elected via parliamentary rules. That way no more gerrymandering and you would give smaller parties a possible voice in federal government.

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thoreau
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau »

By "parliamentary rules" I assume you mean "proportional representation." You can certainly elect the House proportionally without having them choose a PM.

And there are plenty of scales on which PR can operate. In some places it's country-wide (e.g. Israel). In some places each state/province/canton/etc. is its own district (e.g. Switzerland) and all of the representatives from that state/province/canton/etc. are elected via PR. In some places they draw small districts (e.g. 5-10 representatives). I'd probably make small to mid-size states operate as single districts electing up to 15 or so representatives, and divide larger states into a handful of districts. That way CA isn't electing 50 people in one giant race, but gerrymandering a couple of 8-member districts doesn't matter much.
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Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo »

Eric the .5b wrote:It's not the UK, but the seemingly-endless reign of Netanyahu is another reason I'm ice-cold on parliamentary systems right now. They seem to have some of the worst features of old-style political machines.

Contra Thoreau, I'd rather have literally constant campaigning than some parties dedicated to putting one particular fuckhead in power every chance they get. Imagine the GOP dedicated to putting a younger Trump in the White House every time they had a majority.

(And fuck the "oh, the political landscape would be completely different if we were parliamentary" noise. We'd still have the same people, the same politicians, the same interest groups, etc. Maybe it's be called the MAGA Party or something, but it'd be a very similar shit storm.)
The Knesset and Israel is a special kind of political dysfunction. As far as parliamentary governments go, Israel is an outlier in being pretty dysfunctional. In the entire history of Israel, no party has had a majority.

OTOH, as far as presidential governments are concerned, the US is the outlier in being the one that is not dysfunctional. Second place for least dysfunctional presidential country is Mexico and third is Brazil or Argentina or possibly Chile, I guess. There’s a reason why post-WWII when we were recommending democratic structures, we typically went with Parliamentary systems.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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