Brexit: what say ye?

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Shem
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Shem » 28 Aug 2019, 23:01

Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:22
So what has been "swept away"?
It's a Star Wars reference.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau » 28 Aug 2019, 23:08

Upending norms means nothing. Everything means nothing. Nothing matters. Everything is the same, whether done with the backing of parliament or with parliament rendered unable to intervene.

Entropy, ennui, who the fuck cares.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren » 28 Aug 2019, 23:15

thoreau wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:08
Upending norms means nothing. Everything means nothing. Nothing matters. Everything is the same, whether done with the backing of parliament or with parliament rendered unable to intervene.

Entropy, ennui, who the fuck cares.
Didn't we have an intricate plan how you were gonna be not sarcastic anymore?
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen » 28 Aug 2019, 23:25

Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:45
Aresen wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:26
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:22
So what has been "swept away"?
It appears Johnson is trying an end-run against the Supremacy of Parliament, an essential doctrine of Westminster-style governments.
A politician is using parliamentary rules to prevent the opposition from hamstringing his agenda? Oh noes! Say it ain't so. I'm sure that has never once been done before in the history of the old Republic.
Umm. This is essentially equivalent to the POTUS declaring Article 1 of the US Constitution 'suspended.'
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau » 28 Aug 2019, 23:30

Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:15
thoreau wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:08
Upending norms means nothing. Everything means nothing. Nothing matters. Everything is the same, whether done with the backing of parliament or with parliament rendered unable to intervene.

Entropy, ennui, who the fuck cares.
Didn't we have an intricate plan how you were gonna be not sarcastic anymore?
OK, fine, I'll back off.

In my defense, the "Entropy, ennui, who the fuck cares?" part was me acknowledging a joke that somebody else made about me.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by lunchstealer » 28 Aug 2019, 23:39

Aresen wrote:
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:45
Aresen wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:26
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:22
So what has been "swept away"?
It appears Johnson is trying an end-run against the Supremacy of Parliament, an essential doctrine of Westminster-style governments.
A politician is using parliamentary rules to prevent the opposition from hamstringing his agenda? Oh noes! Say it ain't so. I'm sure that has never once been done before in the history of the old Republic.
Umm. This is essentially equivalent to the POTUS declaring Article 1 of the US Constitution 'suspended.'
So at a guess when would you say the last time was that a measure like this was used to prevent a parliamentary override of an unpopular policy?

Bonus points if it was interference against a weak noob PM who was trying to push through a very unpopular and generally disastrous policy?
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Eric the .5b » 28 Aug 2019, 23:46

Aresen wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:25
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:45
Aresen wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:26
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:22
So what has been "swept away"?
It appears Johnson is trying an end-run against the Supremacy of Parliament, an essential doctrine of Westminster-style governments.
A politician is using parliamentary rules to prevent the opposition from hamstringing his agenda? Oh noes! Say it ain't so. I'm sure that has never once been done before in the history of the old Republic.
Umm. This is essentially equivalent to the POTUS declaring Article 1 of the US Constitution 'suspended.'
Really? Because AFAICT, following coverage of this, proroguing Parliament is an unusual but perfectly legal act. It's just hinky because Parliament wants to do things.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren » 28 Aug 2019, 23:49

Eric the .5b wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:46
Aresen wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:25
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:45
Aresen wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:26
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:22
So what has been "swept away"?
It appears Johnson is trying an end-run against the Supremacy of Parliament, an essential doctrine of Westminster-style governments.
A politician is using parliamentary rules to prevent the opposition from hamstringing his agenda? Oh noes! Say it ain't so. I'm sure that has never once been done before in the history of the old Republic.
Umm. This is essentially equivalent to the POTUS declaring Article 1 of the US Constitution 'suspended.'
Really? Because AFAICT, following coverage of this, proroguing Parliament is an unusual but perfectly legal act. It's just hinky because Parliament wants to do things.
It's not even unusual. AFAICT it's done most every year.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen » 28 Aug 2019, 23:54

lunchstealer wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:39
Aresen wrote:
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:45
Aresen wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:26
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 22:22
So what has been "swept away"?
It appears Johnson is trying an end-run against the Supremacy of Parliament, an essential doctrine of Westminster-style governments.
A politician is using parliamentary rules to prevent the opposition from hamstringing his agenda? Oh noes! Say it ain't so. I'm sure that has never once been done before in the history of the old Republic.
Umm. This is essentially equivalent to the POTUS declaring Article 1 of the US Constitution 'suspended.'
So at a guess when would you say the last time was that a measure like this was used to prevent a parliamentary override of an unpopular policy?

Bonus points if it was interference against a weak noob PM who was trying to push through a very unpopular and generally disastrous policy?
I don't know if this has ever been done before in the UK. The closest thing I can think of in Canada was in late 2010 when Harper abruptly ended a session of Parliament to avoid a non-confidence vote that would have forced him to either resign or call an election. (The opposition severely misjudged the public mood. Harper had just won a minority government in an election in 2010 and the public did not want another. There were other factors, but Harper ultimately did call another election in 2011 where the opposition got trounced and Harper got a majority government.)
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 28 Aug 2019, 23:58

thoreau wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:30
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:15
thoreau wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:08
Upending norms means nothing. Everything means nothing. Nothing matters. Everything is the same, whether done with the backing of parliament or with parliament rendered unable to intervene.

Entropy, ennui, who the fuck cares.
Didn't we have an intricate plan how you were gonna be not sarcastic anymore?
OK, fine, I'll back off.

In my defense, the "Entropy, ennui, who the fuck cares?" part was me acknowledging a joke that somebody else made about me.
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Thoreau is going to teach a course next Fall entitled "Entropy, Ennui, Who The Fuck Cares?"

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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren » 28 Aug 2019, 23:58

lunchstealer wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:39
So at a guess when would you say the last time was that a measure like this was used to prevent a parliamentary override of an unpopular policy?
presstv.com wrote:1948

Parliament has not been prorogued by a government as a means of circumventing parliamentary opposition to government policy since 1948. That instance of prorogation was used by the Labour government, which instituted a short session of Parliament to overcome the House of Lord's obstruction to what would become the Parliament Act, 1949.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen » 29 Aug 2019, 00:02

Eric the .5b wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:46
Really? Because AFAICT, following coverage of this, proroguing Parliament is an unusual but perfectly legal act. It's just hinky because Parliament wants to do things.
That's the rub. Johnson appears to be using the prorogation to accomplish what Parliament has specifically forbidden - a No-Deal Brexit.
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:49
It's not even unusual. AFAICT it's done most every year.
Parliament is prorogued every year, but generally only once the government's agenda has basically been completed.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau » 29 Aug 2019, 00:03

Aresen wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:25
Umm. This is essentially equivalent to the POTUS declaring Article 1 of the US Constitution 'suspended.'
I don't know how Westminster systems work, but in American systems you just got somebody to write a memo and then everyone agrees that it must be legit.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren » 29 Aug 2019, 00:08

Aresen wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:25
Umm. This is essentially equivalent to the POTUS declaring Article 1 of the US Constitution 'suspended.'
No. No it isn't. Not even remotely.
It's essentially the equivalent of "The Nuclear Option".
Last edited by Warren on 29 Aug 2019, 00:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen » 29 Aug 2019, 00:09

thoreau wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 00:03
Aresen wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:25
Umm. This is essentially equivalent to the POTUS declaring Article 1 of the US Constitution 'suspended.'
I don't know how Westminster systems work, but in American systems you just got somebody to write a memo and then everyone agrees that it must be legit.
I thought about that, especially in light of how Trump blew off Congress' attempt to nullify his 'State of Emergency.' It appears Caesarism is ascendant throughout the world.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen » 29 Aug 2019, 00:12

Warren wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 00:08
Aresen wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:25
Umm. This is essentially equivalent to the POTUS declaring Article 1 of the US Constitution 'suspended.'
No. No it isn't. Not even remotely.
It's essentially the equivalent of "The Nuclear Option".
If Johnson uses it to accomplish a No Deal Brexit, it is. Because Parliament has already specifically forbidden that.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren » 29 Aug 2019, 00:16

annnnnnnd
I'm out *clap*
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo » 29 Aug 2019, 05:14

Aresen wrote:
29 Aug 2019, 00:02
Eric the .5b wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:46
Really? Because AFAICT, following coverage of this, proroguing Parliament is an unusual but perfectly legal act. It's just hinky because Parliament wants to do things.
That's the rub. Johnson appears to be using the prorogation to accomplish what Parliament has specifically forbidden - a No-Deal Brexit.
Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:49
It's not even unusual. AFAICT it's done most every year.
Parliament is prorogued every year, but generally only once the government's agenda has basically been completed.
Correct and it's typically done for a week or two. Not for 3 right before one of the most consequential sessions in the last half century.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Kolohe » 01 Sep 2019, 23:31

Warren wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:58
lunchstealer wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 23:39
So at a guess when would you say the last time was that a measure like this was used to prevent a parliamentary override of an unpopular policy?
presstv.com wrote:1948

Parliament has not been prorogued by a government as a means of circumventing parliamentary opposition to government policy since 1948. That instance of prorogation was used by the Labour government, which instituted a short session of Parliament to overcome the House of Lord's obstruction to what would become the Parliament Act, 1949.
fwiw, presstv is the Iranian government run English language news channel, so there's always a good chance they're straight up trolling when it comes to talking about the governments of Western/Westernized nations.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Warren » 02 Sep 2019, 00:43

Kolohe wrote:
01 Sep 2019, 23:31
fwiw, presstv is the Iranian government run English language news channel, so there's always a good chance they're straight up trolling when it comes to talking about the governments of Western/Westernized nations.
Really? I did not know that. Nothing on the site looked illegit. If they're trolling it's grand master trolling.
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Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Mo » 03 Sep 2019, 18:32

The most baffling thing about U.K. politics is the existence of Corbyn as the Labour leader. It’s pretty well established the only thing between Labour and running the show is Corbyn. So why not ditch him and get someone slightly less anti-Semitic and terrorist loving? Like you do t have to go whole hog.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by JasonL » 03 Sep 2019, 19:00

We will be asking the same question about our own donkeys in the coming Second Cheetonic Age.

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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Aresen » 04 Sep 2019, 00:27

Mo wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 18:32
The most baffling thing about U.K. politics is the existence of Corbyn as the Labour leader. It’s pretty well established the only thing between Labour and running the show is Corbyn. So why not ditch him and get someone slightly less anti-Semitic and terrorist loving? Like you do t have to go whole hog.
If I read the British Press correctly, it appears that the Corbynites have essentially entrenched themselves in a whole bunch of key positions in the Labour party that gives them control similar to what the Trumpers have in the GOP.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by Shem » 04 Sep 2019, 09:56

It's more that the leader of the party is chosen by paying members, and Corbyn is still wildly popular among them. Kind of like how BoJo became leader; the majority of the country hates him and wanted someone different, but the majority of the 150,000 party members wanted him.
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Re: Brexit: what say ye?

Post by thoreau » 05 Sep 2019, 10:51

This is several months old, but I just found out that Boris Johnson has a sister who is a Remainer and TV host, and she stripped on camera as a protest.

https://www.mediaite.com/politics/watch ... st-brexit/



I'm glad that Trump's siblings are not following suit.
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