The F Word

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JasonL
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Re: The F Word

Post by JasonL »

nicole wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 07:41
Now, admittedly, I haven't seen the Greta Gerwig version so maybe this is...different, but...this is a trip https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/12/ ... privilege/
Gerwig’s Little Women is, indeed, rooted in the advantages of bourgeois white womanhood. It romanticizes female issues (marriage, dependency) with nary a thought about how the social order they take for granted is protected by men. The March sisters are cocooned from the Civil War; radical Jo never writes about it, only about her personal interests.
Did this remake change the story so much that Mr March is no longer...away fighting in the war?
There is candor in such feminist solipsism, yet Gerwig avoids critical thinking. She’s a self-romantic — to judge by repetitive scenes of the March girls’ infatuation with the family’s suitor Laurie (flirtatious pet Timothée Chalamet) and curtsying to their rich aunt (Meryl Streep overacting spinsterhood). Gerwig’s indifference to political fashion is what distinguishes her from Hollywood’s other feminist go-getters. Yet, her version of Little Women is empathetic toward the conventional siblings — doomed Beth (Eliza Scanlen), maternal Meg (Emma Watson), amorous Amy (Florence Pugh).
What version of Little Women isn't empathetic toward those siblings? My chief complaint about Little Women is that Jo doesn't let Amy drown in the pond, but instead saves her and loves her and forgives her for stealing her life! (And that none of the sisters rebel against their mother for giving all their stuff away, which, again, is because it's a super duper progressive story because that's what transcendentalism was like.)
Nicole - I mean this earnestly, you should write the novel you want to read. I'll read it.

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Warren
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Re: The F Word

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I would also read it, but only when I'm feeling really really good.
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nicole
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Re: The F Word

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The other thing I would change would be that Jo would get with the rich and attractive Laurie (aka Christian Bale) instead of rejecting him, because I never saw why she couldn't do that and still have fun and be a writer.
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: The F Word

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Oh oh! Do "Little House on the Prairie" next!
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Re: The F Word

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Pham Nuwen wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 11:34
Oh oh! Do "Little House on the Prairie" next!
Just don't show it to Rachel.
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dead_elvis
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Re: The F Word

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When I saw the 94/95 winona ryder adaptation I called a friend from the theater to confirm other plans weren't happening: "I decided to go see Little Women" and the response was "BUT WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!!??!?!"

Cause it was a date, and going to Little Women was a winning move.
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nicole
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Re: The F Word

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Pham Nuwen wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 11:34
Oh oh! Do "Little House on the Prairie" next!
I really didn't have any problems with it as a kid (or later). I mean now I know I definitely wouldn't want to be a teacher. But I was pretty into Laura.
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Warren
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Re: The F Word

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nicole wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 12:00
Pham Nuwen wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 11:34
Oh oh! Do "Little House on the Prairie" next!
I really didn't have any problems with it as a kid (or later). I mean now I know I definitely wouldn't want to be a teacher. But I was pretty into Laura.
Past the age of 13, I have always been into Melissa Gilbert.
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Ellie
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Re: The F Word

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The most interesting thing about Little Women is what a kook Louisa May Alcott's father was.
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Jennifer
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Re: The F Word

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Gerwig’s Little Women is, indeed, rooted in the advantages of bourgeois white womanhood. It romanticizes female issues (marriage, dependency) with nary a thought about how the social order they take for granted is protected by men.
Wait -- does this person think that, like, "marriage and dependency" (and I'm talking 1860s marriage, not a modern marriage where wives are guaranteed certain rights) was an ADVANTAGE women enjoyed? Specifically, an advantage enjoyed by white women to the exclusion of all other skin tones?
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JasonL
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Re: The F Word

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It is one of those stories I get confused with other stories even though I've seen it / read it several times.

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nicole
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Re: The F Word

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Ellie wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 14:23
The most interesting thing about Little Women is what a kook Louisa May Alcott's father was.
This.
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Re: The F Word

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nicole wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 15:30
Ellie wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 14:23
The most interesting thing about Little Women is what a kook Louisa May Alcott's father was.
This.
Wikipedia wrote:Amos Bronson Alcott (/ˈɔːlkət, -kɪt/; November 29, 1799 – March 4, 1888) was an American teacher, writer, philosopher, and reformer. As an educator, Alcott pioneered new ways of interacting with young students, focusing on a conversational style, and avoided traditional punishment. He hoped to perfect the human spirit and, to that end, advocated a vegan diet before the term was coined. He was also an abolitionist and an advocate for women's rights.
Dear lord! To think this wacko was living among decent people!
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Jennifer
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Re: The F Word

Post by Jennifer »

Warren wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 16:19
nicole wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 15:30
Ellie wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 14:23
The most interesting thing about Little Women is what a kook Louisa May Alcott's father was.
This.
Wikipedia wrote:Amos Bronson Alcott (/ˈɔːlkət, -kɪt/; November 29, 1799 – March 4, 1888) was an American teacher, writer, philosopher, and reformer. As an educator, Alcott pioneered new ways of interacting with young students, focusing on a conversational style, and avoided traditional punishment. He hoped to perfect the human spirit and, to that end, advocated a vegan diet before the term was coined. He was also an abolitionist and an advocate for women's rights.
Dear lord! To think this wacko was living among decent people!
To be fair -- this post brought to you by a former English teacher, now having flashbacks to giving lessons on American transcendentalism -- trying to be vegan (or even vegetarian) in 1800s New England was very different from trying to do this now. Think about certain old stereotypes traditionally associated with vegetarians -- they're weak, easily tired (or "lazy," if you wish to be uncharitable), skinny/scrawny (this when the ideal beauty standard was plumper than now), unattractively pale (this when the ideal beauty standard preferred "pale skin" to "tanned" or "sun-kissed" or whatever the flattering term is ... yet the vegetarians were still "too pale") -- there was much truth behind this stereotype, because what I just described are often the symptoms of malnutrition, especially iron and/or protein deficiency.

If you're a modern vegan or vegetarian, with access to modern nutritional and dietary knowledge AND access to our modern worldwide food infrastructure that makes it super-commonplace and downright affordable for you to eat pretty much anything you want, anytime you want, regardless of whether it is "in season" or can even be grown within 2,000 miles of where you live ... yeah, it's pretty easy for you to eat a healthy vegan or vegetarian diet that meets all human nutritional needs, if you're willing to put a little extra work and effort into it (extra compared to what an omnivore would have to do). Basically, find out what vital nutrients most people get from animal products, determine which non-animal alternatives you can eat to get these nutrients, and voila.

But in 19th-century New England, even if you were MUCH richer and better-educated than most, you knew almost nothing about "vitamins" and "minerals" and "proteins" or any other nutritional stuff -- you might know "certain fruits or fruit juices cure scurvy," but little beyond that. But even if you DID possess circa-2019 nutrition knowledge, and wanted to make sure you got enough iron and protein and dietary fat and other things without eating meat -- and especially without even eating eggs and dairy -- there's a high chance you genuinely couldn't, because the vegan offerings you'd need to eat were literally unavailable at ANY price.
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Jadagul
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Re: The F Word

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One of my favorite stories is that a 19th-century New Englander actually wouldn't know that certain fruits cure scurvy: the theory that citrus fruits could cure scurvy was pretty thoroughly debunked by the mid-to-late 1800s. Despite the fact that it was true.

This happened basically because they didn't have the concept of vitamins or minerals, and so couldn't figure out how the lemons were helping; and some of their attempts to make them help more actually neutralized them, and then they didn't work.

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Hugh Akston
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Re: The F Word

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It wouldn't have mattered much anyway, since the people who mostly got scurvy were soldiers, sailors, and explorers—people who didn't have access to fresh produce. And since you can get your RDA of Vitamin C from a mouthful of just about any damn thing that comes out of the ground, even poor landlubbers probably weren't in much danger of contracting it, much less worrying about it.
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Ellie
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Re: The F Word

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No, I meant the part where he dragged his whole family out to live on a commune (I believe it was a farm started by a bunch of people who had never farmed before but figured, gee, how hard could it be?)
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Re: The F Word

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Ellie wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 18:32
No, I meant the part where he dragged his whole family out to live on a commune (I believe it was a farm started by a bunch of people who had never farmed before but figured, gee, how hard could it be?)
Still flashing back to Transcendental lessons, but by now some of the details have mercifully faded -- was THAT the commune that failed because this entire community of wannabe utopian farmers all decided to leave the farm and go on vacation for, like, the entire month of September and October (or whatever corresponds to the fall harvest 'round them-there parts?) I know at least ONE commune mentioned by name in American literature textbooks did that.
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Ellie
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Re: The F Word

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No (though now I want to read about that one!) -- this one failed because their vegan principles included not using animal labor (like oxen for plowing) but then most of the potential human labor (the men) wanted to spend their time teaching philosophy instead of farming, so they didn't plant enough food to keep them going through the winter.
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Ellie
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Re: The F Word

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Oh yeah and they also wouldn't eat root vegetables because it bothered them that they grew down instead of up.
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Re: The F Word

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Ellie wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 18:53
Oh yeah and they also wouldn't eat root vegetables because it bothered them that they grew down instead of up.
Ellie wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 18:52
No (though now I want to read about that one!) -- this one failed because their vegan principles included not using animal labor (like oxen for plowing) but then most of the potential human labor (the men) wanted to spend their time teaching philosophy instead of farming, so they didn't plant enough food to keep them going through the winter.
If they fancied themselves "educated men" then they should have been more familiar with the writings of one Charles Darwin.
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Jadagul
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Re: The F Word

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Hugh Akston wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 17:54
It wouldn't have mattered much anyway, since the people who mostly got scurvy were soldiers, sailors, and explorers—people who didn't have access to fresh produce. And since you can get your RDA of Vitamin C from a mouthful of just about any damn thing that comes out of the ground, even poor landlubbers probably weren't in much danger of contracting it, much less worrying about it.
Nelson's navy in the Napoleonic Wars had scurvy completely eliminated, with a ration of lemon juice.

By the 1870s, the idea that citrus fruit would cure scurvy was mostly seen as a superstition. It had been debunked. Despite the fact that it was, of course, correct. Consequently, scurvy was one of the major threats to most of the long-term expeditions, e.g. the ones to the poles.

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Jennifer
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Re: The F Word

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Ellie wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 18:53
Oh yeah and they also wouldn't eat root vegetables because it bothered them that they grew down instead of up.
[Flashback]

Oh, fuck, those guys! The Fruitlands. The Fruitlands. [Shudder] At least it didn't last long.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: The F Word

Post by Eric the .5b »

Jadagul wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 20:59
Hugh Akston wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 17:54
It wouldn't have mattered much anyway, since the people who mostly got scurvy were soldiers, sailors, and explorers—people who didn't have access to fresh produce. And since you can get your RDA of Vitamin C from a mouthful of just about any damn thing that comes out of the ground, even poor landlubbers probably weren't in much danger of contracting it, much less worrying about it.
Nelson's navy in the Napoleonic Wars had scurvy completely eliminated, with a ration of lemon juice.

By the 1870s, the idea that citrus fruit would cure scurvy was mostly seen as a superstition. It had been debunked. Despite the fact that it was, of course, correct. Consequently, scurvy was one of the major threats to most of the long-term expeditions, e.g. the ones to the poles.
Part of the reason for that being that the British navy switched from lemon juice to lime juice, which doesn't actually have enough vitamin C to prevent scurvy.
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Jadagul
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Re: The F Word

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Eric the .5b wrote:
28 Dec 2019, 03:07
Jadagul wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 20:59
Hugh Akston wrote:
27 Dec 2019, 17:54
It wouldn't have mattered much anyway, since the people who mostly got scurvy were soldiers, sailors, and explorers—people who didn't have access to fresh produce. And since you can get your RDA of Vitamin C from a mouthful of just about any damn thing that comes out of the ground, even poor landlubbers probably weren't in much danger of contracting it, much less worrying about it.
Nelson's navy in the Napoleonic Wars had scurvy completely eliminated, with a ration of lemon juice.

By the 1870s, the idea that citrus fruit would cure scurvy was mostly seen as a superstition. It had been debunked. Despite the fact that it was, of course, correct. Consequently, scurvy was one of the major threats to most of the long-term expeditions, e.g. the ones to the poles.
Part of the reason for that being that the British navy switched from lemon juice to lime juice, which doesn't actually have enough vitamin C to prevent scurvy.
Right. Largely because the Napoleonic navy knew that lemon juice _worked_, but not why; they didn't actually have any concept of vitamins or minerals, and they thought maybe it was the acidity. The other big thing is that copper leaches vitamin c and they had absolutely no way of guessing that'd be a problem.

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