The F Word

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fyodor
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Re: The F Word

Post by fyodor » 28 Aug 2017, 21:05

lunchstealer wrote:
28 Aug 2017, 19:43
Yeah, this sounds like he's making excuses. "Uh, you're getting awful flirty with all these hot women you are around, and it's bothering me." "No, baby, I'm just super-feminist and so I like women better than men. You got nothin' to worry about." He's excusing the behavior she's noticing, not denying that it's there.

Maybe that's a misread.

Gaslighting would be more like, "You keep working late every day and you're spending more time with your hot female cast than you are with me!" "No, baby, I was home early three times last week, I even cooked dinner twice, don't you remember?"

One is a counterfactual explanation for observed facts. The other is denying observed facts in such a way that you have to question your memory. This is more the former than the latter.
That sounds right to me.

And if gaslighting is supposed to have expanded to cover the former, then BFD if it's gaslighting. Well, BFD beyond just another scummy guy in the entertainment biz who can't keep it in his pants. Yawn. (Actually even the latter seems like just another strategy to the same end. I would think that gaslighting becomes a feminist "thing", to my mind anyway, when it's done for the purpose of domination. And I'd think it's probably actually pretty rare. You'd have to be pretty damn good to pull that kind of shit off.)
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lunchstealer
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Re: The F Word

Post by lunchstealer » 28 Aug 2017, 21:23

fyodor wrote:
28 Aug 2017, 21:05
lunchstealer wrote:
28 Aug 2017, 19:43
Yeah, this sounds like he's making excuses. "Uh, you're getting awful flirty with all these hot women you are around, and it's bothering me." "No, baby, I'm just super-feminist and so I like women better than men. You got nothin' to worry about." He's excusing the behavior she's noticing, not denying that it's there.

Maybe that's a misread.

Gaslighting would be more like, "You keep working late every day and you're spending more time with your hot female cast than you are with me!" "No, baby, I was home early three times last week, I even cooked dinner twice, don't you remember?"

One is a counterfactual explanation for observed facts. The other is denying observed facts in such a way that you have to question your memory. This is more the former than the latter.
That sounds right to me.

And if gaslighting is supposed to have expanded to cover the former, then BFD if it's gaslighting. Well, BFD beyond just another scummy guy in the entertainment biz who can't keep it in his pants. Yawn. (Actually even the latter seems like just another strategy to the same end. I would think that gaslighting becomes a feminist "thing", to my mind anyway, when it's done for the purpose of domination. And I'd think it's probably actually pretty rare. You'd have to be pretty damn good to pull that kind of shit off.)
And it seems ungendered. Manipulation and psychological domination in relationships is pretty common among both (primary) genders.
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thoreau
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Re: The F Word

Post by thoreau » 28 Aug 2017, 21:27

lunchstealer wrote:
28 Aug 2017, 21:23
And it seems ungendered. Manipulation and psychological domination in relationships is pretty common among both (primary) genders.
Yeah, but if somebody says "That's classic patriarchy" you can't really get away with saying "Hey, women do that to men as well!" It just never works.

Doesn't mean that your point is wrong, but it's not a terribly effective one to offer.
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fyodor
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Re: The F Word

Post by fyodor » 29 Aug 2017, 11:32

thoreau wrote:
28 Aug 2017, 21:27
lunchstealer wrote:
28 Aug 2017, 21:23
And it seems ungendered. Manipulation and psychological domination in relationships is pretty common among both (primary) genders.
Yeah, but if somebody says "That's classic patriarchy" you can't really get away with saying "Hey, women do that to men as well!" It just never works.

Doesn't mean that your point is wrong, but it's not a terribly effective one to offer.
Truth is one thing. Persuading those disinclined to embrace it quite another. Whatever the subject, whatever the truth.
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thoreau
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Re: The F Word

Post by thoreau » 31 Aug 2017, 11:32

Another freak-out over a classic being remade with a female cast: Lord of the Flies

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai ... 55a13d678a

For the record, I liked Lady Ghostbusters, I have enjoyed gender-reversed stagings of classic plays, but apparently being intrigued by Lady of the Flies makes me sexist.

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Mo
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Re: The F Word

Post by Mo » 31 Aug 2017, 11:57

Isn't that just Mean Girls?
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Re: The F Word

Post by Warren » 31 Aug 2017, 12:03

I didn't care that they gender flipped GB.
Flipping LotF is just a dumb idea. It's either an entirely different story, or you are pretending girls are just boys without dicks.
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thoreau
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Re: The F Word

Post by thoreau » 31 Aug 2017, 12:08

Mo wrote:Isn't that just Mean Girls?
Maybe. But so what? Hollywood reboots male-dominated franchises all day long. Then they decide to revisit classic literature with gender roles reversed and the world freaks out.

Gender-reversed stories are interesting. Characters behaving badly are interesting.
Warren wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 12:03
I didn't care that they gender flipped GB.
Flipping LotF is just a dumb idea. It's either an entirely different story, or you are pretending girls are just boys without dicks.
<Critical Theorist>There are girls who have dicks, you transphobe!</Critical Theorist>

More to the point, the most interesting thing about Lady of the Flies would be to see the girls descend from civilization to savagery. In Lord of the Flies the descent was more interesting than the low point they arrived at. Girls might not descend in exactly the same way, but they would still descend.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Dangerman » 31 Aug 2017, 12:24

LoTF with preteen girls is a terrifying thought.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Warren » 31 Aug 2017, 12:26

thoreau wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 12:08
More to the point, the most interesting thing about Lady of the Flies would be to see the girls descend from civilization to savagery. In Lord of the Flies the descent was more interesting than the low point they arrived at. Girls might not descend in exactly the same way, but they would still descend.
Yeah okay. But it's a totally different path downward. If it's Lady of the Flies, I'd be keen to watch the trailer at least. If it's hunters, red faces, and sacrifices to the beast, I'll pass.
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Re: The F Word

Post by thoreau » 31 Aug 2017, 12:29

I just want to know whether I'm supposed to say that there are no differences between men and women, or that there are totally differences between men and women. Usually it's the first, but with Lady of the Flies it seems to be the second.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Warren » 31 Aug 2017, 12:36

thoreau wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 12:29
I just want to know whether I'm supposed to say that there are no differences between men and women, or that there are totally differences between men and women. Usually it's the first, but with Lady of the Flies it seems to be the second.
You are not suppose to say anything about women. You are suppose to show contrition for being a man.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Jasper » 31 Aug 2017, 12:58

Warren wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 12:36
thoreau wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 12:29
I just want to know whether I'm supposed to say that there are no differences between men and women, or that there are totally differences between men and women. Usually it's the first, but with Lady of the Flies it seems to be the second.
You are not suppose to say anything about women. You are suppose to show contrition for being a man.
Chicken dinner.
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fyodor
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Re: The F Word

Post by fyodor » 31 Aug 2017, 13:37

More broadly (har), there are NOT differences that favor men but there ARE differences that favor women.

But you knew that.

Does make me wonder if Lady might actually get a happy ending (aside from the "rescue").
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Re: The F Word

Post by Kolohe » 31 Aug 2017, 13:44

Mo wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 11:57
Isn't that just Mean Girls?
This.

Someone on the Internet pointed out that the essence of Lord of the Flies boils down to the fact that these were all upper aristocratic kids from the peak of the British Empire, so they were supposed to be 'better' but in fact they were not. So the story has some sub rosa anti-imperial, anti-class, anti-racism themes that aren't really added to (or subtracted from necessarily) by making them all girls instead of boys.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Warren » 31 Aug 2017, 14:17

I don't see the "Isn't that just Mean Girls" that seems to be everyone's first reaction. Mean Girls is set in school. Mean girls function within the school structure. The whole point of LotF is what happens when school boys are removed from school.
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Re: The F Word

Post by nicole » 31 Aug 2017, 14:22

Warren wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 14:17
I don't see the "Isn't that just Mean Girls" that seems to be everyone's first reaction. Mean Girls is set in school. Mean girls function within the school structure. The whole point of LotF is what happens when school boys are removed from school.
srsly
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Re: The F Word

Post by nicole » 31 Aug 2017, 14:26

A. It needs to be called Queen of the Bees.
B. I would rather have a remake of A High Wind in Jamaica.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Warren » 31 Aug 2017, 14:28

nicole wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 14:26
A. It needs to be called Queen of the Bees.
I like it!
B. I would rather have a remake of A High Wind in Jamaica.
A High what now? Let me google that.
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Mo
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Re: The F Word

Post by Mo » 31 Aug 2017, 15:04

Warren wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 14:17
I don't see the "Isn't that just Mean Girls" that seems to be everyone's first reaction. Mean Girls is set in school. Mean girls function within the school structure. The whole point of LotF is what happens when school boys are removed from school.
\facepalm

1) Joke
2) High school is Lord of the Flies plus mild fear of administrative punishment, especially movie depictions of high school. Strong prey on weak.
3) See 1
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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fyodor
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Re: The F Word

Post by fyodor » 31 Aug 2017, 15:06

Warren wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 14:17
I don't see the "Isn't that just Mean Girls" that seems to be everyone's first reaction. Mean Girls is set in school. Mean girls function within the school structure. The whole point of LotF is what happens when school boys are removed from school.
But then part of the point is that it's really always there but just looks different.

(Totally aside from any relevance of MG)

Let's not lose sight of the fact that remakes usually suck regardless of anything.
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Kolohe
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Re: The F Word

Post by Kolohe » 31 Aug 2017, 15:27

Queen of the Bees is a winner for sure.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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thoreau
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Re: The F Word

Post by thoreau » 31 Aug 2017, 15:37

Kolohe wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 15:27
Queen of the Bees is a winner for sure.
Not okay, bro. When Lorde sang "You can call me Queen Bee" it was interpreted as a slap at Beyonce, and hence racist.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Warren » 31 Aug 2017, 15:46

Mo wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 15:04
Warren wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 14:17
I don't see the "Isn't that just Mean Girls" that seems to be everyone's first reaction. Mean Girls is set in school. Mean girls function within the school structure. The whole point of LotF is what happens when school boys are removed from school.
\facepalm

1) Joke
2) High school is Lord of the Flies plus mild fear of administrative punishment, especially movie depictions of high school. Strong prey on weak.
3) See 1
I saw this in several places. Everyone thought of the same joke?
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Mo
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Re: The F Word

Post by Mo » 31 Aug 2017, 15:50

Yes, because of #2.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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