The F Word

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nicole
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The F Word

Post by nicole » 18 May 2016, 11:00

A thread about feminism.

I thought this was an interesting read on how trans men experience the world differently than they did as women.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Warren » 18 May 2016, 11:12

Different, not better.
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Re: The F Word

Post by thoreau » 18 May 2016, 12:26

nicole wrote:A thread about feminism.

I thought this was an interesting read on how trans men experience the world differently than they did as women.
The point about testosterone and confidence is interesting, but before we jump to conclusions about differences having biological roots it is also possible that transmen become more confident once they have transitioned because they are more comfortable with this identity. I would be interested in hearing if transwomen experience drops in confidence and decisiveness once they start taking hormones.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Taktix® » 18 May 2016, 12:43

thoreau wrote:
nicole wrote:A thread about feminism.

I thought this was an interesting read on how trans men experience the world differently than they did as women.
The point about testosterone and confidence is interesting, but before we jump to conclusions about differences having biological roots it is also possible that transmen become more confident once they have transitioned because they are more comfortable with this identity. I would be interested in hearing if transwomen experience drops in confidence and decisiveness once they start taking hormones.
And ability to drive!

*rimshot*

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Re: The F Word

Post by Sandy » 19 May 2016, 18:00

thoreau wrote:
nicole wrote:A thread about feminism.

I thought this was an interesting read on how trans men experience the world differently than they did as women.
The point about testosterone and confidence is interesting, but before we jump to conclusions about differences having biological roots it is also possible that transmen become more confident once they have transitioned because they are more comfortable with this identity. I would be interested in hearing if transwomen experience drops in confidence and decisiveness once they start taking hormones.
Either one would explain why they were encountering more career success post transition. And being very visibly trans would explain why transwomen feel less confident and hence have more career woes.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Mo » 19 May 2016, 21:38

Though neither really explains more difficulty publishing, since appearance doesn't come into it.
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Re: The F Word

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 19 May 2016, 21:53

It doesn't seem to have slowed Deirdre McCloskey down.

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Re: The F Word

Post by Sandy » 19 May 2016, 23:18

Mo wrote:Though neither really explains more difficulty publishing, since appearance doesn't come into it.
Unless pitches are affected by confidence, or the adoption of tentative language.
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Re: The F Word

Post by nicole » 16 Aug 2016, 11:16

Sarah Attar is competing in the Olympics for the second time, after her London 2012 appearance made her among the first women sent to the Olympics by Saudi Arabia.
The IOC was threatening to boot Saudi from the Olympics if they did not start sending women.

Attar is a dual national who grew up in Southern California and went to Pepperdine. Here's a story from WaPo I read last month about how her performance for Saudi has helped change the country for the better, because now if you try to run outdoors there, instead of being mobbed and beaten within 5 minutes, you just might get arrested: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/o ... story.html

This year she ran the women's Olympic marathon for the first time and came in second-to-last.

Attar is definitely not getting the same level of media attention as Ibtihaj Muhammad has for being the first member of the US team to wear hijab, but she is getting some level of feminist props for repping Saudi. Earlier this year she was even adopted by feminist running apparel company Oiselle for some level of sponsorship. She wrote a blog post about her experiences in Saudi after inspiring girls there to be interested in sport: http://www.oiselle.com/blog/olympian-sa ... -her-story

I'm just...disgusted by it. I can't get on board even the tiniest bit with any of it. I think Attar is disgusting, I think the people supporting her are disgusting, I think her parents are disgusting...I just can't. Fuck Saudi. If you haven't inspired the girls there to kill their fathers and brothers you haven't done shit for them.

Maybe I am wrong and maybe it will help women but I would a thousand times rather see Saudi booted from the Games, and from polite society in general.

Of course, I say this as someone who thinks it would be problematic to represent any country, but fuck.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Hugh Akston » 16 Aug 2016, 12:23

So would you prefer no change at all over incremental change in the right direction? Or do you think that exile for heresy is more productive than conditional engagement?
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Re: The F Word

Post by nicole » 16 Aug 2016, 12:35

Hugh Akston wrote:So would you prefer no change at all over incremental change in the right direction? Or do you think that exile for heresy is more productive than conditional engagement?
I mean, as I suggest, I'd prefer a bloody revolution. But in general I don't have much interest in conditional engagement, probably.
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Re: The F Word

Post by JasonL » 16 Aug 2016, 12:53

It depends on the other with whom one is conditionally engaging. In some cases it serves primarily to deflect from persistent horror for truly insignificant improvement by trivial numbers of people. I don't care if Kim Jong Un adopts an orphan or something for example. I mean, yay orphan I guess, but come on.

It is not the same to seek marginal improvements say in US law enforcement practices.

It is difficult to pin down exactly when the institution in question might be amenable to marginal influences, but I do think it is a mistake to view all such attempts as empowering equal monsters.

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Re: The F Word

Post by Hugh Akston » 16 Aug 2016, 13:15

nicole wrote:
Hugh Akston wrote:So would you prefer no change at all over incremental change in the right direction? Or do you think that exile for heresy is more productive than conditional engagement?
I mean, as I suggest, I'd prefer a bloody revolution. But in general I don't have much interest in conditional engagement, probably.
I get that. I don't have much use for exclusive institutions (that is, all institutions), and I think dominant institutionality in general is a hindrance to robust self-actualization. But we live in a world of gatekeepers, and it seems like the popular strategy to diminish their influence is to push through the gates rather than just set up shop outside the walls.

And it's kind of a privileged position to say "rise up and rebel" from the outside. One, that's a good way to get killed when all she probably wants to do is run. Second, in terms of efficacy, well we know what happened to John Brown.
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Re: The F Word

Post by nicole » 16 Aug 2016, 13:27

Hugh Akston wrote:
nicole wrote:
Hugh Akston wrote:So would you prefer no change at all over incremental change in the right direction? Or do you think that exile for heresy is more productive than conditional engagement?
I mean, as I suggest, I'd prefer a bloody revolution. But in general I don't have much interest in conditional engagement, probably.
I get that. I don't have much use for exclusive institutions (that is, all institutions), and I think dominant institutionality in general is a hindrance to robust self-actualization. But we live in a world of gatekeepers, and it seems like the popular strategy to diminish their influence is to push through the gates rather than just set up shop outside the walls.

And it's kind of a privileged position to say "rise up and rebel" from the outside. One, that's a good way to get killed when all she probably wants to do is run. Second, in terms of efficacy, well we know what happened to John Brown.
Well a lot of my disgust comes from the fact that she's an American who grew up in America and never has to go to Saudi at all if she doesn't want to. She's in no danger of being killed, but she gets to do some kind of Sexy Hijab Media Tour and be Olympics Famous when she's not an elite athlete, which seems pretty gross. She's here, she avoided that horror, she could be helping other women get out if she wants to do something.

(And part of my disgust at the parents comes from them having taken her there ever. I think it's totally unconscionable for a father to bring his minor daughters to Saudi, period.)
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Re: The F Word

Post by Hugh Akston » 16 Aug 2016, 13:35

Oh yeah I have a ticket for that train. otoh, maybe some Arabian girls will watch a lady hijabbing past the finish line without getting stoned to death for public whorishness and think "why not me?"
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Re: The F Word

Post by Number 6 » 16 Aug 2016, 13:42

I have nothing of substance to add, however, I will say that I love the phrase 'public whorishness.'

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Re: The F Word

Post by thoreau » 16 Aug 2016, 13:43

Hugh Akston wrote:Oh yeah I have a ticket for that train. otoh, maybe some Arabian girls will watch a lady hijabbing past the finish line without getting stoned to death for public whorishness and think "why not me?"
This.

Whatever transient respectability the men who run Saudi Arabia might enjoy as the world pats them on the back for not stoning her, I think the benefit of inspiring Saudi girls outweighs it.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Aresen » 16 Aug 2016, 14:01

nicole wrote: Fuck Saudi. If you haven't inspired the girls there to kill their fathers and brothers you haven't done shit for them.
I'd settle for mass regicide and mullahcide.
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Re: The F Word

Post by the innominate one » 16 Aug 2016, 15:35

Number 6 wrote:I have nothing of substance to add, however, I will say that I love the phrase 'public whorishness.'

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Agree, plus I love actual public whorishness.
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Re: The F Word

Post by Jennifer » 16 Aug 2016, 16:42

thoreau wrote:
nicole wrote:A thread about feminism.

I thought this was an interesting read on how trans men experience the world differently than they did as women.
The point about testosterone and confidence is interesting, but before we jump to conclusions about differences having biological roots it is also possible that transmen become more confident once they have transitioned because they are more comfortable with this identity. I would be interested in hearing if transwomen experience drops in confidence and decisiveness once they start taking hormones.
Transgender women have reported being gobsmacked by the sexism they now face as women -- which, I daresay, has nothing to do with women's hormones and everything to do with men's sexist ideas.
Two months after she transitioned to female, Deirdre McCloskey found herself having a quintessentially female experience. She was chatting with fellow economics professors at Erasmus University in the Netherlands, all of whom happened to be men. She was attempting to make an argument, but no one seemed to be listening. A few minutes later, a male professor articulated the same idea. "What a great point, George!" others exclaimed.

"I remember saying to myself, 'Yes! They're treating me like a woman!'" says McCloskey. It was a bizarrely backwards accomplishment in her quest to femininity. "And it was the first and last time I enjoyed such an experience."

There are countless hurdles to transitioning, some obvious, some less so. But for transgender women, there's one final surprise at the end of the tunnel: the realization that being their true selves puts them at a cultural disadvantage. That, in a way, they've been drafted to the losing team.

"A lot of trans women are aware that there is male privilege before we transition–that women are not treated with as much respect as men," says Julia Serano, author of Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity. "But there's a big difference between knowing privilege exists and the literal experience of losing it."

For Serano, the sexism hit her all at once. "All of a sudden, the world is, to a certain degree, a lot more dangerous or precarious," she says of discovering her new reality. "Those of us who made it to adulthood before we transitioned don't have the benefit of learning coping skills over time."

The transgender women we spoke with cited a litany of new challenges on the other side of their transition, which will be painfully familiar to the cisgender women reading it: getting talked down to, getting talked over, getting catcalled in the street, getting dismissed in the workplace, and so on. "I would be talking about a patient, and a male medical student would be kind of glazed over, staring at my breasts," says Dr. Marci Bowers, the first transgender surgeon to ever perform a gender-reassignment procedure....
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Re: The F Word

Post by Jennifer » 16 Aug 2016, 18:57

Another thing -- not related to transgenderism, but to feminism in general, and why IMO it's still needed despite the many real gains western women have enjoyed this past century or more: when the OJ Simpson murder trial was still current news, I wasn't particularly interested in the story one way or the other, but one of my cousins was fascinated by it and watched the TV trial coverage all the time. (She was much older than me -- close to my mother's age -- and I think part of her fascination was because she could actually remember when O.J. Simpson was a bigtime beloved celebrity.)

One afternoon I went to her house; as usual, the TV was on, and a prosecutor or assistant was discussing and showing the location of the stab wounds on Nicole Brown Simpson's body. The prosecutor had a stiff white piece of posterboard with a black outline of a human body on it, and pointed to spots on that poster-body to indicate where N.B. Simpson's corresponding wounds were -- but the poster used to demonstrate the position of a woman's fatal wounds had an outline of a man's body on it. (I remember at the time saying something to the effect of "I'd understand if Nicole Simpson had been, like, the first female murder victim in Los Angeles history, but she was not, and this is bullshit.")

Of course, that was 20+ years ago, and maybe today's LA prosecutors now have female-body posters too, but there are still lots of little things demonstrating the attitude "The default human being is a man, and women are merely weird variations on that theme."
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Re: The F Word

Post by the innominate one » 16 Aug 2016, 19:49

Did it have a penis outlined?
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Re: The F Word

Post by Jennifer » 16 Aug 2016, 19:56

the innominate one wrote:Did it have a penis outlined?
I don't remember, but it was definitely a male torso. Some guy who obviously worked out, and watched his diet.
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Re: The F Word

Post by the innominate one » 16 Aug 2016, 20:03

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

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Re: The F Word

Post by Jennifer » 16 Aug 2016, 20:06

The late Mrs. Simpson didn't work out that much, though. And I still think it odd that, as of the mid-1990s, the jury props used by a big-city prosecutor's office had the implicit assumption that any murder victim would be a male.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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