Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 17886
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 21 Mar 2016, 02:40


User avatar
Highway
Posts: 12884
Joined: 12 May 2011, 00:22
Location: the Electric Ocean

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Highway » 21 Mar 2016, 08:21

"we can expect a number of severe attachment disorders that could reap havoc in our society."
Definitely...
"Sharks do not go around challenging people to games of chance like dojo breakers."

User avatar
tr0g
Posts: 6641
Joined: 11 May 2011, 10:21
Location: At the shop

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by tr0g » 21 Mar 2016, 10:14

So it's the Automat revived?

EDIT: The restaurant is. The rest of is just a call to build more robot repair schools.
Yeah but how can you tell at a glance which junk a raccoon is packing? Also, gay raccoons? - Hugh Akston
Nothing you can say is as important as the existence of a functioning marketplace of ideas, go set yourself on fire. - JasonL

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 14340
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Aresen » 21 Mar 2016, 11:52

D.A. Ridgely wrote:But where's the tip jar?
It contains the usual luddite whingeing:
"I can see mass unemployment on the horizon as the robotics revolution takes hold," said Noel Sharkey, a professor emeritus of robotics and artificial intelligence at the University of Sheffield in the UK. Sharkey recently started the Foundation for Responsible Robotics to help us avoid the "potential societal and ethical hazards" from the widespread application of autonomous robots.
"Foundation for Responsible Robotics". I propose we call it "The Butlerian Institute" instead.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 3645
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Painboy » 21 Mar 2016, 15:44

People have been predicting mass unemployment due to automation ever since the invention of the steam engine. Yet, not only are most people still employed, they are in much better jobs than their predecessors.

User avatar
Taktix®
Posts: 7739
Joined: 07 May 2010, 05:29
Location: The Caribbean

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Taktix® » 21 Mar 2016, 15:49

D.A. Ridgely wrote:But where's the tip jar?
Well, at least we have the answer to the "Who's going to work these menial jobs once everyone has a college degree" meme...

(Although I don't think that's what the memesmith had in mind)
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

User avatar
Andrew
Posts: 6118
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 21:52
Location: Vale of Eternal Fire

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Andrew » 21 Mar 2016, 16:15

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.
We live in the fucked age. Get used to it. - dhex

holy shit there will never be an end until the sweet release of death (as dictated by the death panels, natch) - lunch

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 14340
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Aresen » 21 Mar 2016, 16:19

Andrew wrote:I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.
I do admit that HRC is rather robotic, but I find it difficult to understand why you would welcome her as overlord.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
Taktix®
Posts: 7739
Joined: 07 May 2010, 05:29
Location: The Caribbean

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Taktix® » 21 Mar 2016, 16:28

Aresen wrote:
Andrew wrote:I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.
I do admit that HRC is rather robotic, but I find it difficult to understand why you would welcome her as overlord.
Well, she's legacy hardware, but I'm sure she'll be go through large-scale upgrades once connected to the source...
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22483
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Jennifer » 21 Mar 2016, 16:35

Painboy wrote:People have been predicting mass unemployment due to automation ever since the invention of the steam engine. Yet, not only are most people still employed, they are in much better jobs than their predecessors.
The working-class Americans making up the backbone of the Trump and Sanders supporters don't seem to agree with your assertion that their current jobs are "better" than what their predecessors had -- which is why "Republican frontrunner Donald Trump" stopped being a joke on an old Simpsons episode and is now actual news, Zod help us all.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22483
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Jennifer » 21 Mar 2016, 16:49

Speaking as a longtime reader of "sociological science fiction" -- I do think we (meaning "humanity as a whole," not merely "Americans") are on the cusp of a radical change in how societies operate -- the notion that the majority of people simply have to work "full-time" for a living is about to change due to massive technological shifts. I remember reading the original novel Logan's Run (which in many ways differs from the cheesy movie, BTW) -- one of the characters was complaining about all the time she wasted at her boring job. But where a "modern" (1970s) American would've said "Eight hours a day, five days a week," she said something like "four hours a day, three days a week." The idea "In the future, people will have to do far less work while living far richer material lives" used to be pretty much taken for granted among futurists. For all that it violates libertarian orthodoxy, I think it is going to make a comeback -- not necessarily during my pre-retirement working lifetime, but almost certainly before today's crop of Gryllbabies become grandparents. In many ways the "amount" of work has decreased-- "full-time" is defined as 40 hours a week (usually divided amongst five days), whereas 100 years ago, six-day workweeks of 12 hours per day were commonplace for factory workers in this country.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22445
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by JasonL » 21 Mar 2016, 17:00

There are a lot of possibilities. I need to see how the career paths of the millennials progress. I know three that moved from retail to nursing in the past 2 years. They are being paid a lot more now. It could be a demographic wave that makes it hard for 40 somethings to convert from manufacture to new skills, but a generation that grows up in this world will be able to direct to the right places. It's entirely too soon for this kind of talk in my view. Not too soon to talk about end of low skill manufacture in the US, but too soon to say "and there's nothing else for the unskilled to do that makes any money forever in the future."

User avatar
JD
Posts: 10250
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:26

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by JD » 21 Mar 2016, 17:08

Jennifer wrote:The working-class Americans making up the backbone of the Trump and Sanders supporters don't seem to agree with your assertion that their current jobs are "better" than what their predecessors had -- which is why "Republican frontrunner Donald Trump" stopped being a joke on an old Simpsons episode and is now actual news, Zod help us all.
Well, with all due respect, I think those people suffer from a lack of historical perspective. A hundred years ago, a lot of them would have been doing manual labor on farms or in factories, at longer hours, being injured and killed more often, at lower wages, dying younger. That's not to deny the way they feel, but I don't think it stems from a reasoned comparison of things.
"Millennials are lazy. They'd rather have avocado toast than cave in a man's skull with a tire iron!" -FFF

User avatar
Andrew
Posts: 6118
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 21:52
Location: Vale of Eternal Fire

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Andrew » 21 Mar 2016, 17:26

Aresen wrote:
Andrew wrote:I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.
I do admit that HRC is rather robotic, but I find it difficult to understand why you would welcome her as overlord.
No, HRC is a lizard person.
We live in the fucked age. Get used to it. - dhex

holy shit there will never be an end until the sweet release of death (as dictated by the death panels, natch) - lunch

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22483
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Jennifer » 21 Mar 2016, 17:33

JasonL wrote:There are a lot of possibilities. I need to see how the career paths of the millennials progress. I know three that moved from retail to nursing in the past 2 years. They are being paid a lot more now. It could be a demographic wave that makes it hard for 40 somethings to convert from manufacture to new skills, but a generation that grows up in this world will be able to direct to the right places. It's entirely too soon for this kind of talk in my view. Not too soon to talk about end of low skill manufacture in the US, but too soon to say "and there's nothing else for the unskilled to do that makes any money forever in the future."
The issue is not "the unskilled can't make any money," so much as "the unskilled can't make enough money for a decently comfortable life." (Remember when Dick Cheney said "The American way of life is non-negotiable?" When you get right down to it, THAT is the attitude inspiring the Trumpkins and the Sanderistas, with "the American way of life" defined as "If you are honest and willing to put in a full day's work, you can make a decently comfortable life for yourself and a small family.")

You might recall on another recent thread, I mentioned the anecdote of watching old 1970s pre-oil embargo episodes of Let's Make A Deal. Just a couple nights ago, Jeff and I watched an episode where somebody won a 25" color TV worth $700, in 1972 dollars. According to the BLS inflation calculator, $700 in 1972 was worth $3,970.76 today. By way of comparison, when Jeff and I bought our 36" high-def TV in 2013 -- which is both bigger and objectively better than that 1972 set, though by modern TV standards it's on the small side -- we paid just under $300 excluding sales tax. So, yeah: the real, inflation-adjusted price of our television, not even counting its larger screen, clearer images and other advantages over the 1972 model, was only one-thirteenth as much as it was 44 years ago. And I could cite similar anecdotes for every appliance people won on that 1972 game show: today's appliances are much better and much cheaper (especially the microwave ovens, which were still new tech back then -- on another episode, somebody won an Amana Radarange worth $400 in 1972).

And it's fucking awesome that such wonderful appliances are available for such little money. Even people working crummy $8-per-hour McJobs can afford a microwave oven and a color TV nowadays. But, look at this from the perspective of an American McJob worker who, back in the day, had a high-paying job making 25" TVs that sold for $4,000 apiece and now flips burgers for eight bucks an hour: yeah, he probably has more and better appliances than his 1972 counterpart working in the TV or microwave oven factory. But his job fucking sucks -- a steady, constant, 9-to-5 (or 11-to-7) job with regularly scheduled time off, paid vacation and sick days, full bennies etc. is inherently "better" than a part-time, ever-changing schedule, no paid leave and no bennies gig, even if both have the same base pay (and they don't). At the same time, I agree that bringing back such jobs via trade restrictions and tariffs would be spectacularly bad for all consumers and the economy as a whole: if my TV cost $4,000, I simply wouldn't have it -- Jeff and I were both gainfully employed when we bought it, but even so.

Which is why over the past few months -- around the time "Republican frontrunner Donald Trump" changed from a punchline to a headline -- I've come to the conclusion that some sort of guaranteed basic income (as opposed to higher minimum wages, tariff or trade restrictions, etc.) is a good idea. The first time I recall anybody here mentioning the idea of a GBI was Jadagul -- IIRC, it's when I was toying with a way to reform Social Security via a flat allowance for all over-67s, and Jadagul said something like "Good idea, but let's do that for all adults." At the time I opposed his objection for the same essential reason you do -- don't want to enable the lazy lotus-eater types -- but that was before the rise of the Trumpkins and the Sanderistas, who for the most part are not lotus eaters -- they're willing and eager to work full-time, they just don't want to languish in American-style poverty while doing so. The free market runs in cycles, and always has winners and losers; right now, we appear to be in a phase of the cycle where the "losers" are working-class Americans who can't get "good" jobs anymore-- even though they can afford "good" appliances relative to 1972. And that cycle, left to its own free-market devices, is incredibly unlikely to bring back "good" working-class jobs in our lifetimes, let alone soon enough to mollify the Trumpkins and the Sanderistas. Even if Trump and Sanders go away after this election, their supporters will not.
Last edited by Jennifer on 21 Mar 2016, 17:37, edited 1 time in total.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
D.A. Ridgely
Posts: 17886
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:09
Location: The Other Side

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 21 Mar 2016, 17:34

Andrew wrote:
Aresen wrote:
Andrew wrote:I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.
I do admit that HRC is rather robotic, but I find it difficult to understand why you would welcome her as overlord.
No, HRC is a lizard person.
Alternatively,

Hillary as Dominatrix Image
Last edited by D.A. Ridgely on 22 Mar 2016, 00:04, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 3645
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Painboy » 21 Mar 2016, 17:52

Jennifer wrote:
Painboy wrote:People have been predicting mass unemployment due to automation ever since the invention of the steam engine. Yet, not only are most people still employed, they are in much better jobs than their predecessors.
The working-class Americans making up the backbone of the Trump and Sanders supporters don't seem to agree with your assertion that their current jobs are "better" than what their predecessors had -- which is why "Republican frontrunner Donald Trump" stopped being a joke on an old Simpsons episode and is now actual news, Zod help us all.
Do certain Trump supporters believe other races or immigrants are inferior or damage our culture with their ideas and lifestyle? If so then why should I take anything they say as a credible example of actual reality? Just because they perceive the job situation is worse does not mean it is.

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22483
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Jennifer » 21 Mar 2016, 18:12

Painboy wrote:
Jennifer wrote:
Painboy wrote:People have been predicting mass unemployment due to automation ever since the invention of the steam engine. Yet, not only are most people still employed, they are in much better jobs than their predecessors.
The working-class Americans making up the backbone of the Trump and Sanders supporters don't seem to agree with your assertion that their current jobs are "better" than what their predecessors had -- which is why "Republican frontrunner Donald Trump" stopped being a joke on an old Simpsons episode and is now actual news, Zod help us all.
Do certain Trump supporters believe other races or immigrants are inferior or damage our culture with their ideas and lifestyle?
Some of them do, yes. But despite the racist soundbites getting the most media attention, the bulk of Trump's speeches deal with jobs and other economic matters. It's not racism fueling the economic fears; it's economic fears fueling the racism.
If so then why should I take anything they say as a credible example of actual reality?
You needn't take their concerns as "credible reality," but you must understand that their concerns are real, whether or not you think they "should" be. Here's a relevant quote from the "journalism" thread a few days ago:
Aresen wrote:
Painboy wrote:
thoreau wrote:Jennifer has not said that anyone's perspective is an accurate reflection of macroeconomic reality. Jennifer has not proposed shitting on consumers.

What a lot of people do worry about is the reality that the people who experienced these concentrated costs are in the body politic, they aren't going away, and we need to think about some response better than "You need to think about the diffuse benefits to consumers!" Because that response is going to make this worse, not better.

And, however un-libertarian a public policy response to concentrated costs might be, I can't think of many things less libertarian than "Stop worrying about your own situation and think about the diffuse benefits to the greater society."
Why is it my job to accommodate them and not the other way around? Why do I have to do something about this and not them? Why can't they learn to change with the times? At the very least can the people who care so much about it try to help them before having to rope the rest of us into shitty trade deals?
Philosophically, this may be true. But they do represent a large bloc of voters who have enough allies to give them a plurality in elections. It is not a case of 'what is right?' but 'what is doable in the political environment?'
Like it or not -- and I for one do not like it -- the Sanderistas and Trumpkins (read: working-class Americans who are very unhappy about their current and future prospects) comprise a large bloc of voters, and they are not going away.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 3645
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Painboy » 21 Mar 2016, 18:39

You needn't take their concerns as "credible reality," but you must understand that their concerns are real, whether or not you think they "should" be. Here's a relevant quote from the "journalism" thread a few days ago:
You're not getting it. Their concerns don't mean anything because it is based on their own faulty perception. There are jobs out there that need to be done but they are unwilling to take them for whatever reason. They want some fantasy job that never really existed. On top of that there is all kinds of bullshit out there that only reinforces the skewed perception they have. Trump is just feeding into that.

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22483
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Jennifer » 21 Mar 2016, 18:54

Painboy wrote:
You needn't take their concerns as "credible reality," but you must understand that their concerns are real, whether or not you think they "should" be. Here's a relevant quote from the "journalism" thread a few days ago:
You're not getting it. Their concerns don't mean anything because it is based on their own faulty perception. There are jobs out there that need to be done but they are unwilling to take them for whatever reason. They want some fantasy job that never really existed. On top of that there is all kinds of bullshit out there that only reinforces the skewed perception they have. Trump is just feeding into that.
Do you remember what famed pro-capitalist Adam Smith wrote about poverty (in his famous "linen shirt" example) -- it's not merely a matter of what material things you have, but how you're doing compared to the standards of your society:
Adam Smith, in The Wealth of Nations, wrote:A linen shirt, for example, is, strictly speaking, not a necessary of life. The Greeks and Romans lived, I suppose, very comfortably, though they had no linen. But in the present times, through the greater part of Europe, a creditable day-labourer would be ashamed to appear in public without a linen shirt, the want of which would be supposed to denote that disgraceful degree of poverty, which, it is presumed, nobody can well fall into without extreme bad conduct.
What Americans call a lower-middle-class lifestyle, for example, is, strictly speaking, not a necessary of life. The bulk of humanity throughout history lived, I suppose, very comfortably, though they had none of what Americans consider lower-middle-class comfort. But in the present times, through the greater part of the United States, a creditable laborer would be ashamed if not outright pissed off to not have it.

You can sneer all your want about these people's faulty perceptions, just as someone in Adam Smith's day could sneer about the faulty perceptions of people who wanted linen shirts. You can argue that Adam Smith simply didn't "get it" anymore than today's Trumpkins and Sanderistas do. If your arguments make the Trumpkins and Sanderistas go away, and convince the bulk of McJob holders to be content with what they have (which is indeed immense wealth by world historical standards), great! But thus far I've seen no evidence that this'll work, and plenty of evidence that it doesn't -- with exhibit A being the words "Republican frontrunner Donald Trump."

EDIT: Typos
Last edited by Jennifer on 21 Mar 2016, 19:09, edited 2 times in total.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 22820
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Mo » 21 Mar 2016, 18:59

And yet,according to exit polls, Trump supporters are less concerned about the economy and jobs than the general Republican primary electorate. If they care about the economy and jobs, why don't they care more than the average Republican primary voter.

Sure he talks about jobs, but in the sense of Mexicans and Chinese people stealing them.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22483
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Jennifer » 21 Mar 2016, 19:04

Mo wrote:And yet,according to exit polls, Trump supporters are less concerned about the economy and jobs than the general Republican primary electorate. If they care about the economy and jobs, why don't they care more than the average Republican primary voter.

Sure he talks about jobs, but in the sense of Mexicans and Chinese people stealing them.
Which polls are these? The ones I'm seeing are mentioning jobs and the economy, as in this five-day-old transcript on NPR:


KHALID: Something that I often hear from Trump supporters is a concern about their own economic circumstances. Freedman says he's been hurt by globalization and the use of H1B visas for highly-skilled tech workers.

FREEDMAN: And I've watched my wages go down to the point where actually I can't work for anybody anymore in order to maintain my quality of life.
And please forgive the possible tautology, but Americans wouldn't care about Mexicans or Chinese "stealing their jobs" if those people were content with the jobs they have. But they're not, which is why they're supporting Donald Trump of all people.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 22820
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Mo » 21 Mar 2016, 19:30

Here's an analysis done looking at exit polls across all states where they are available.
Trump performed no better in states where the economy was the biggest issue than in other states. In the ten states where the economy was the top issue, Trump won eight, or 80 percent. In the five states where the economy was second, Trump won four . . . or 80 percent. His average margin of victory was 7.8 points in states where the economy ranked second but just 6.9 points in states where the economy was the top issue.

Trump also did worse among voters for whom the economy was a top issue than among other voters. He won voters who chose the economy as their top issue in 10 of 15 states, worse than his showing among voters over all, which he carried in 12 of 15. While he won jobs-and-economy voters in ten states, he won immigration voters in twelve, and terrorism voters in twelve. In all 15 states, Trump’s margin of victory was higher among at least one other category of voters than it was among jobs-and-economy voters. In eight states, Trump’s margins were greater on at least two other issues, and in two states his margins were lowest among jobs-and-economy voters.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22483
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Jennifer » 21 Mar 2016, 20:04

While he won jobs-and-economy voters in ten states, he won immigration voters in twelve, and terrorism voters in twelve.
For those "immigration" voters, some of them are undoubtedly inspired by racism (of the "Oh no, white people will cease to be the American majority!" variety), but for others, their main complaint about immigrants is that "they took our jerbs," which is simply a roundabout way of saying "They're worried about their jobs and/or economic prospects."
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22483
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Welcome, Robot Overlords, Er, Servants!

Post by Jennifer » 21 Mar 2016, 20:40

Sudden snarky thought which actually belongs on the "random observations" thread, though it makes more sense here: is "More capitalist than Adam Smith" the libertarian equivalent of "more Catholic than the pope?" :lol:
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests