DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

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nicole
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by nicole » 28 Jul 2017, 14:22

Warren wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 14:19
nicole wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 14:16
Wikipedia is not particularly helpful on the latter two points--and assuming it's correct, they don't even have access to oral contraceptives for family planning, so there really seems like something to explain there.
WTF? RU SRS?
*googles* hmmm can't seem to find the Wikipedia page you're reading. Link?
See here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_ ... Statistics and directly below at "contraceptive use"

ETA: Looks like it may have become legal relatively recently http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2009/1 ... h-control/ (note Wikipedia warns against relying on government abortion statistics, as those in this article--which put the abortion rate in Japan at less than half that in the US)
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JasonL
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DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by JasonL » 28 Jul 2017, 14:26

My interactions with Japanese arranged marriages suggest at least there the measures of success are different. It's pragmatic. The good situations are maybe amicable but happy with partner is something they think of as American fantasy for the most part. It's stable but its goals are entirely distinct from those where you choose a partner.

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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Hugh Akston » 28 Jul 2017, 14:27

There's a story linked in the Atlantic article indicating that Japanese young people are just not getting it on.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Highway » 28 Jul 2017, 14:51

Hugh Akston wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 14:27
There's a story linked in the Atlantic article indicating that Japanese young people are just not getting it on.
That article also has tons of the same contradictions (oh, the joys of a society where people are actively discouraged from making their true feelings known). The guys don't want to ask women out because they're afraid of getting rejected. The women won't ask men out because they want to be asked out. And "I should have to ask them out because they should notice how much I like them because of the things I do for them."
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nicole
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by nicole » 28 Jul 2017, 14:52

Hugh Akston wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 14:27
There's a story linked in the Atlantic article indicating that Japanese young people are just not getting it on.
That seems more to the point, albeit pretty speculative.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Hugh Akston » 28 Jul 2017, 15:00

nicole wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 14:52
Hugh Akston wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 14:27
There's a story linked in the Atlantic article indicating that Japanese young people are just not getting it on.
That seems more to the point, albeit pretty speculative.
Yeah they're not very clear about the data the conclusions are based on.
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Shem
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Shem » 28 Jul 2017, 15:51

Aresen wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 13:08
Highway wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 12:55
As an aside, there's a current manga (that's being adapted into an anime this season and live action movie right now) named Koi to Uso (Love and Lies) that is set in a Japan where in the 1970s, they instituted a law that everyone is "scientifically" paired at age 16 with someone they must marry. So 40 years later, when the show happens, all the older people seem happy with the system that they've lived in. I'm finding it really interesting so far.
I remember reading somewhere that people in arranged marriages actually averaged out more content and better off than people who selected their own mates. I suspect that is more due to cultural pressures than anything else, but there could be some truth in it.

People in the grip of their hormones are not exactly objective about their potential mates' flaws and the problems that might ensue.
There have actually been studies that found (controlling for abuse, of course) that people who grind their way through marital problems in order to stay together are happier 7 years later than people who divorce. Part of me wonders if the contentment in arranged marriage is just a combination of a determination to stick it out and Stockholm Syndrome.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Shem » 28 Jul 2017, 16:07

nicole wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 14:16
While the Atlantic story has some potential explanations for why Japanese people aren't getting married, it doesn't seem to do anything at all to explain low birth rates. Are people actually having less sex? Are they better at using contraceptives? More likely to terminate a pregnancy? Wikipedia is not particularly helpful on the latter two points--and assuming it's correct, they don't even have access to oral contraceptives for family planning, so there really seems like something to explain there.
It's been (to use a term of art) a long-ass time since Sociology of Japan classes, but IIRC, the population growth of Japan was essentially 0 for almost 150 years between the early 1700s and the Meiji Restoration. In a historical sense, they tend to have huge population growth during times of upheaval with balance or even decline in some areas during stability. Combine this tendency toward comparatively low birth rates in general with the specific factor of people putting off childbirth until they've past their most fertile period and choosing fewer children with higher resources per kid, and you're probably about 85% of the way to an answer.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Mo » 28 Jul 2017, 16:08

Shem wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 15:51
Aresen wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 13:08
Highway wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 12:55
As an aside, there's a current manga (that's being adapted into an anime this season and live action movie right now) named Koi to Uso (Love and Lies) that is set in a Japan where in the 1970s, they instituted a law that everyone is "scientifically" paired at age 16 with someone they must marry. So 40 years later, when the show happens, all the older people seem happy with the system that they've lived in. I'm finding it really interesting so far.
I remember reading somewhere that people in arranged marriages actually averaged out more content and better off than people who selected their own mates. I suspect that is more due to cultural pressures than anything else, but there could be some truth in it.

People in the grip of their hormones are not exactly objective about their potential mates' flaws and the problems that might ensue.
There have actually been studies that found (controlling for abuse, of course) that people who grind their way through marital problems in order to stay together are happier 7 years later than people who divorce. Part of me wonders if the contentment in arranged marriage is just a combination of a determination to stick it out and Stockholm Syndrome.
And expectations management. Your expectations going into an arranged marriage are that this person is someone you're supposed to get along with and start a family with. You are not going in expecting someone who is your one and only, that will change their bad habits for you and will be able to fulfill rom-com fueled fantasies.
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nicole
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by nicole » 28 Jul 2017, 16:24

Shem wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 16:07
nicole wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 14:16
While the Atlantic story has some potential explanations for why Japanese people aren't getting married, it doesn't seem to do anything at all to explain low birth rates. Are people actually having less sex? Are they better at using contraceptives? More likely to terminate a pregnancy? Wikipedia is not particularly helpful on the latter two points--and assuming it's correct, they don't even have access to oral contraceptives for family planning, so there really seems like something to explain there.
It's been (to use a term of art) a long-ass time since Sociology of Japan classes, but IIRC, the population growth of Japan was essentially 0 for almost 150 years between the early 1700s and the Meiji Restoration. In a historical sense, they tend to have huge population growth during times of upheaval with balance or even decline in some areas during stability. Combine this tendency toward comparatively low birth rates in general with the specific factor of people putting off childbirth until they've past their most fertile period and choosing fewer children with higher resources per kid, and you're probably about 85% of the way to an answer.
But are you suggesting they have just been super not into sex for all that time?
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Shem
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Shem » 28 Jul 2017, 16:50

nicole wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 16:24
Shem wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 16:07
nicole wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 14:16
While the Atlantic story has some potential explanations for why Japanese people aren't getting married, it doesn't seem to do anything at all to explain low birth rates. Are people actually having less sex? Are they better at using contraceptives? More likely to terminate a pregnancy? Wikipedia is not particularly helpful on the latter two points--and assuming it's correct, they don't even have access to oral contraceptives for family planning, so there really seems like something to explain there.
It's been (to use a term of art) a long-ass time since Sociology of Japan classes, but IIRC, the population growth of Japan was essentially 0 for almost 150 years between the early 1700s and the Meiji Restoration. In a historical sense, they tend to have huge population growth during times of upheaval with balance or even decline in some areas during stability. Combine this tendency toward comparatively low birth rates in general with the specific factor of people putting off childbirth until they've past their most fertile period and choosing fewer children with higher resources per kid, and you're probably about 85% of the way to an answer.
But are you suggesting they have just been super not into sex for all that time?
No, I'm suggesting that being not super into having lots of kids is not a historical anomaly when it comes to Japan. And if most people were never going to go above 2 kids in the first place (which is what you need if you want 150 years of stable populations) and a lot of them decide to only have 1, it doesn't take long for that to add up to a demographic collapse.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Mo » 28 Jul 2017, 19:37

But pre-birth control isn't the only way reliably keep the number of kids down not fucking?
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Shem » 28 Jul 2017, 20:07

Mo wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 19:37
But pre-birth control isn't the only way reliably keep the number of kids down not fucking?
Abortion. Also, infanticide. They even have a special bodhisattva for dead fetuses and infants. Hides them in his robes to sneak them out of hell. Where they go either because they don't have fully-formed souls and so can't make it across the river into Paradise, or because they died and made their parents sad, depending on the sect.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Mo » 31 Jul 2017, 13:27

For all the talk of rising housing prices, interesting that housing basically eats a fixed share of wallets since 1960.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by nicole » 31 Jul 2017, 13:35

Teens aren't working as much in the summer as they used to...but that might be because they're still in school instead: https://ernietedeschi.blogspot.com/2017 ... -easy.html

Really? What are all these summer schools? Jfc, the horror.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by JasonL » 31 Jul 2017, 13:38

Price per square foot hasn't gone up much at all in inflation adjusted dollars. Average home size is nearly 1,000 sq ft more than it was in 1960. Cost of money is lower than at most points in history.

http://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... ouses2.jpg
Last edited by JasonL on 31 Jul 2017, 13:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Hugh Akston » 31 Jul 2017, 13:38

Kids should be in school during the summer. There is no defensible logic to a three-month break in the middle of the year.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by nicole » 31 Jul 2017, 13:47

I mean, other than "there's no defensible logic to imprisoning kids for even nine months, let alone 12."
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Hugh Akston » 31 Jul 2017, 13:51

Yes, if you accept the premise of third-party education, then there is no reason that schedule should be interrupted for a quarter of the year at a time.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Aresen » 31 Jul 2017, 14:03

Hugh Akston wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 13:51
Yes, if you accept the premise of third-party education, then there is no reason that schedule should be interrupted for a quarter of the year at a time.
In rural North America, which held the largest fraction of US and Canadian population until around 1920, it was because the kids were basically supplemental farm workers. The demand for their labor was highest in the summer and early fall.

Teachers' Unions have since expanded what used to be a two month break into three. Christmas and Easter breaks have gotten longer, too.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Highway » 31 Jul 2017, 14:07

It always feels here that the breaks have been reduced from what they used to be, at least for summer break. Classes ended in summer around June 10-15, now they continue to more like the 18th or 23rd. And we only once started in August, when Labor Day was relatively late, but now schools here sometimes start with 2 weeks of August left.

We always had a 2 1/2 month break, but now it seems like it's only 2 months.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Hugh Akston » 31 Jul 2017, 14:17

Aresen wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 14:03
Hugh Akston wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 13:51
Yes, if you accept the premise of third-party education, then there is no reason that schedule should be interrupted for a quarter of the year at a time.
In rural North America, which held the largest fraction of US and Canadian population until around 1920, it was because the kids were basically supplemental farm workers. The demand for their labor was highest in the summer and early fall.
lol nope
Kids in rural, agricultural areas were most needed in the spring, when most crops had to be planted, and in the fall, when crops were harvested and sold. Historically, many attended school in the summer when there was comparatively less need for them on the farm.
Urban schools had a very different school schedule, but also included summer. School was essentially open year round, but was not mandatory, and children came when they could. In 1842, New York City schools were open 248 days a year, dramatically more than the 180 or so that they are open today.

In the days before air conditioning, schools and entire cities could be sweltering places during the hot summer months. Wealthy and eventually middle-class urbanites also usually made plans to flee the city’s heat, making those months the logical time in cities to suspend school.
By the late 19th century, school reformers started pushing for standardization of the school calendar across urban and rural areas. So a compromise was struck that created the modern school calendar.
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by tr0g » 31 Jul 2017, 14:21

Texas won't let the public schools start before the 4th Monday in August. Then you have 180 days of instruction (technically, 75,600 minutes for schedule flexibility reasons). So with a reasonable complement of holidays (24 days total) and 2 inclement weather days built in, they're done on June 1 this year.

To tie in with JasonL's link on required educational hours, that's 1,260. But Texas, so lunch and recess count as instructional time*.

*which, if you believe in the (anti)socialization aspect of school, makes a certain amount of sense, but srsly?
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Mo
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Re: DOOM! (Insert extra Os as you see fit)

Post by Mo » 31 Jul 2017, 14:22

Hugh Akston wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 13:38
Kids should be in school during the summer. There is no defensible logic to a three-month break in the middle of the year.
My district, for pre-high school grades, had a year round schedule. Instead of one long summer break, you had quarterly month long breaks.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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