Putin on the Writs

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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Pham Nuwen » 29 Jul 2019, 23:14

The camps aren't a nice safe topic where one tribe or another can beat it's chest. I think that's why they are important. And I admire you. I'm doing absolutely nothing about the situation at the camps. I'm ashamed but I was serious in the past when I mentioned I'm just keeping my head down while I'm at the mercy of people with possibly bad ideas and strong opinions. A single bad preceptor could theoretically sink me.
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Number 6
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Number 6 » 29 Jul 2019, 23:27

Dr T: I don't think you should drop any subject. I just think that you could benefit from cooling off a bit and remembering that we're all friends here.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 29 Jul 2019, 23:46

Personally, I am looking forward to meeting thoreau and Painboy and Kwix and Jake (and Shannon) at Grelaxyllicon this weekend.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Pham Nuwen » 29 Jul 2019, 23:56

Aresen wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 23:46
Personally, I am looking forward to meeting thoreau and Painboy and Kwix and Jake (and Shannon) at Grelaxyllicon this weekend.
I'm very upset you nerds moved the date from July. I wanted to meet you. To let you know America rules and Canada drools. Rock Flag and Eagle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:(
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Taktix®
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 30 Jul 2019, 02:19

Dangerman wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 21:37
Taktix, I don't know if I've done the stuff you're talking about, but I don't think you're mentally ill or crazy. I just don't come to the same conclusions you have, given much of the same information. I would ask you, do you think we also are reasonable people (those of us who you respect and esteem)? And how do you feel about our reaction to your strong feelings about this issue? I think that we mirror each other; a feeling that the other person is simply seeing things in a way which we do not believe is warranted. And that's ok until it seems like the issue at hand is an existential threat, at which point it becomes... Something Else. There are issues we talk about here that reveal these divides, and at some point we have to accept that other people are not like us in many ways, and are unlikely to change their views for reasons that are not available to us. When we encounter these, I think we need to recognize what is happening and treat these differences with respect, because no amount of strenuous arguing will convince people that mayonnaise is gross.
I completely support your right to have differing opinions than myself. I expect that. You are a sentient human being with a different set of tastes and experiences.

But I also have every right to try to present my case for why you should be more alarmed, and with few exceptions I have tried to provide links to facts that are not so disputable as purely aesthetic things like one's taste in condiments. Facts don't have two equal sides like aesthetic opinions.

All I am asking for is "why?" Why don't you think this weekly-to-daily stream of facts is nothing to be concerned about? Post after post, I have tried to demonstrate an overwhelming pile of facts to explain how I came to my opinions (and occasional speculations) in the hope that you'll take me seriously and maybe, just maybe, reconsider your opinions even just a little.

How did you come to your conclusion that the way I'm seeing things is unwarranted? Do you have any facts that would help me understand how you came to your opposing opinion? Personal experiences? Reasoned arguments? I'm not shy, I laid my cards down. And I will proudly declare that I am open to being convinced that I am misinformed, if provided only a modestly compelling case. If you have already, just state that. Perhaps I missed it, and I'll gladly perform the Gryll-fu searching necessary to find it.

I would love to be wrong. I have nothing to gain being right. I have no vested interest in scaring people or, worse, getting Democrats elected. I would leap with gusto at good, sound reasons NOT to be alarmed that our voting systems aren't subject to compromise. I would relish the thought that I'm not living to see the collapse of the American republic.

Please, give me some reason to hope, some argument based in facts rather than "there there Sport, you're just overreacting!"
Pham Nuwen wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 22:49
Thoreau and taktix,

I love you guys. I do. I am just not happy with the all out effort to get rid of Trump. I mean everyone focuses on his shittiness and lose track of the real shit he has nothing to do with, I feel. Heard about Epstein lately? What about the camps? Fuck no you haven't. But hey! He said some awful shitty stuff on twitter and everyone's jumped in feet first. Both sides. Blah blah blah.

I just don't think you should be able to remove a democratically elected leader without smoking gun shit. Smoking gun shit we will never get because it's been deleted or hidden. And there's a Senate full of peeps who won't convict. He's awful. I don't like him. I just get really really REALLY nervous when I hear about how we need to, MUST, remove him. You better believe this shit is going to come up one way or another with the next president. I don't want to live in a banana republic.

It's not about being above the shit. It's about focusing on said shit that isn't immediately obvious. Russia has clearly influenced American politics. No question about it. There isn't shit you can do til November of 2020. You have to accept that. You have to. Please stop making people tune you out. Because you have more influence than you probably realize, small though it may be.

Chill the fuck out guys.
Thanks for the love. I have no illusions that the GOP Senate will ever remove Trump. Impeachment needs to happen because it's the House's constitutional duty, but I know full well he's not getting kicked out. What impeachment will do is give the Democrats to power to expose everything he does including his connections to Russia so that the voters can make the most informed decision possible in 2020. Whether they choose to is up to them.

I don't understand why you think we haven't "heard about Epstein" or "the camps" because a) one can follow more than one story in the news at once and b) both Epstein and the concentration camps are directly tied to Trump, so I don't understand why they're mutually exclusive.

Reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes a smoking gun but I think there have been multiple smoking barrels of a traitor's pistol displayed publicly, not the least of which was the Trump Tower meeting. And whether you believe in it or not, the Constitution allows for the removal of democratically elected leaders for a variety of reasons, including treason. But again, that mechanism is fatally flawed by requiring a 2/3rds majority and is, at this point, never going to happen. And sorry, if you don't want to live in a banana republic, you should definitely not look up videos of Trump's tank parade on July 4th nor notice the fact that his children still occupy important positions in his administration and there's talk of putting Ivanka on the ticket as VP in 2020.

But you are absolutely wrong that there's nothing to be done before November 2020. Awareness is an effective counter to misinformation campaigns, and you best believe I'm using every platform I have to get the word out. I will be volunteering (cause I'm too broke to donate) in some capacity in the coming cycle, because there's no way I could live with myself in the future if Trump wins and I can't say I did everything I could have to fight the rising tide of authoritarianism in America. I'm sorry the truth tunes you out, but as they say, the truth is still true whether or not you choose to believe it...
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

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Mo
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 31 Jul 2019, 05:52

JasonL wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 15:40
I'd be interested in where I said that. I typically argue about the costs and scope of the regulation in question. There are times where the nature of the proposal in question is to create a regulatory regime that specifically grants authority forever over certain kinds of things. There are other times when the proposal itself carries very broad implications to a market that currently exists. Those are not the slippery slope form "If we allow A we will be communists soon thereafter". I don't believe that and if I said something that sounds like that I didn't express myself clearly.

I believe in lots of equilibria that can remain somewhat stable.
I mean I know people here tend to be more consequentialists and the norms and process that get you to the same shitty end state doesn't matter, but I think that's where my frustration comes from. Because crossing all the ts and dotting all the is is harder than barreling through, President Kamala putting people in cages the "right way" is better. Because what scares me more than President Kamala with pre-Trump norms and limits is President Kamala with Trump-like norms and limits. With the awareness that if you just get partisan unification and say "Whatever, I'll do what I want," no one will stop you. Trump out of office in 2020 makes it less likely to stick, but a reelection without a subsequent impeachment means the cake is baked for a generation, so strap in for the worst excesses of President Cotton or President AOC.

If Fox News and the fractured partisan media of today existed in the 70s, instead of common mass media, he never gets pressured from his party and never steps down.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Pham Nuwen » 31 Jul 2019, 09:14

God I'm terrified of the "Trump did it! Get out of the way!" executive orders that are almost guaranteed to happen. Cats out of the bag.
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JasonL
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 31 Jul 2019, 09:48

My major concerns with Trump, in order are:

1) His brinksmanship with norms and procedures - this is my biggest concern. At some point I'll have to compile the sorts of things included in here, which is a list I think is smaller than what some of you have but still substantial. The ones that bother me most are things like pressing the national emergency button for funding and even worse "military version of imminent domain". I'm bothered by emoluments to a lesser degree and I'm not bothered at all about his treatment of the press.

2) his views and set of policies about immigrants - The Bernie wing of the left also wants to limit both illegal and legal immigration dramatically, what those policies look like and what they are willing to do for deterrence is unclear, BHO implemented a version of family separation due to these pressures

3) his views and set of policies about debt and trade - the donkeys are just as bad in both.

There is a balancing narrative for which there is some support which I suspect I think many here would laugh at, and that is "they ARE out to get him". The norms of story vetting in the media, the norms of requirements to secure monitoring on a candidate, man ... I get it in an abstract sense there was smoke, but there were lies made about the "verified" status of a bunch of the Steele dossier. Yes a judge signed off and yes it was disclosed to be a political document, so I'm not saying there shouldn't have been an investigation - I'm saying norms were violated. Much of the press will print literally anything if it cuts a certain way.

So, yeah, I think the existence of trump because he pushes limits and because people hate him so much going the other way has probably permanently damaged norms of engagement. The next president can't be other than despised by the opposition party and we have entered a world of gloves are off like really for real real. The question for me is does any candidate drag us back from that. Is why I hope for a milquetoast moderate policy wonk type.

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Mo
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 31 Jul 2019, 10:23

JasonL wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 09:48
3) his views and set of policies about debt and trade - the donkeys are just as bad in both.
Name one Republican president since Ford, aside from HW, that proposed anything within a country mile to the Obama Grand Bargain for taking the deficit seriously. Also, TPP was pushed by Obama. Bernie, Warren and Twitter aren't all Dems. The first two combined don't even match Biden on polling.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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JasonL
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 31 Jul 2019, 11:12

They are all racing to the left.

I loved the Grand Bargain in the form of the Bipartisan Budget Committee - but he couldn't sell it to his own party and I think it was seen as a loser by everyone. It makes me sigh. I blame the tea party 75% for that but there's still 25% for the donkeys who didn't even try.

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Taktix®
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 31 Jul 2019, 11:50

Jason,

Regarding Trump's treatment of the press, are you saying you're not concerned that what he's doing is wrong, or you're not concerned what he's doing will be effective (iow, the free press will survive)?
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JasonL
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 31 Jul 2019, 12:13

I think the free press not surviving what he’s doing is an actual joke. It’s okay for a president to be shitty with a hostile media. It’s okay to claim fake news, especially when there is a non trivial amount of fake news.

It’s not okay to use force or intimidation through threat of force.

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Aresen
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 31 Jul 2019, 12:16

Taktix® wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 11:50
Jason,

Regarding Trump's treatment of the press, are you saying you're not concerned that what he's doing is wrong, or you're not concerned what he's doing will be effective (iow, the free press will survive)?
I think the free press will survive for now, but I am more concerned about the attempts to push the 'hate speech is not free speech' narrative and the attempts to subjugate the internet to FCC regulation (or some similar agency that might be set up for the internet.)
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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JasonL
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 31 Jul 2019, 12:21

Agree.

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Mo
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 31 Jul 2019, 14:38

JasonL wrote:They are all racing to the left.

I loved the Grand Bargain in the form of the Bipartisan Budget Committee - but he couldn't sell it to his own party and I think it was seen as a loser by everyone. It makes me sigh. I blame the tea party 75% for that but there's still 25% for the donkeys who didn't even try.
Donkeys tried. Reds walked away because there were tax hikes combined with the entitlement cuts and Obama said something mean about Paul Ryan (the vapors Republicans had over that mild rebuke is super hilarious in hindsight).
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 03 Aug 2019, 02:02

Nobody doubts your sincerity or that you're putting your money where your mouth is. I admire your honesty. Hell, I like you! You can come over to my house and fuck my sister!

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Taktix®
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 13 Aug 2019, 18:17

Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks Trump is intentionally wrecking our agricultural economy: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/10/trump-i ... china.html

But I'm sure it's just a coincidence. It's not like globally-warmed Siberia will have increasingly viable farmland in the coming decades or anything...
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Dangerman
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Dangerman » 13 Aug 2019, 18:37

I mean Canada and the upper Midwest will benefit as much as Siberia.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 13 Aug 2019, 18:57

Taktix® wrote:
13 Aug 2019, 18:17
Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks Trump is intentionally wrecking our agricultural economy: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/10/trump-i ... china.html

But I'm sure it's just a coincidence. It's not like globally-warmed Siberia will have increasingly viable farmland in the coming decades or anything...
FWIW, I don't think Trump is "intentionally" wrecking it in the sense of thinking "Yeah, I want to destroy America's agricultural sector, and pissing off China enough for it to quit buying US agro products altogether is a great start!" -- I just think he really is that stupid. Like, imagine some kid dipshit enough to think Wile E. Coyote is worth emulating -- when he dropped that anvil on your head, he wasn't "intentionally" trying to crush your skull; he only wanted to reshape the anvil so that it had a comical Taktix's-head-shaped outline in the bottom of it.
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Aresen
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 14 Aug 2019, 00:38

Jennifer wrote:
13 Aug 2019, 18:57
Taktix® wrote:
13 Aug 2019, 18:17
Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks Trump is intentionally wrecking our agricultural economy: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/10/trump-i ... china.html

But I'm sure it's just a coincidence. It's not like globally-warmed Siberia will have increasingly viable farmland in the coming decades or anything...
FWIW, I don't think Trump is "intentionally" wrecking it in the sense of thinking "Yeah, I want to destroy America's agricultural sector, and pissing off China enough for it to quit buying US agro products altogether is a great start!" -- I just think he really is that stupid.
I think Trump imagines he has the same sort of leverage with China that he had with Canada and Mexico. The latter two are really screwed if the USA puts up barriers to trade. China is merely inconvenienced.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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Taktix®
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 24 Aug 2019, 10:13

Dangerman wrote:
13 Aug 2019, 18:37
I mean Canada and the upper Midwest will benefit as much as Siberia.
True, but Russia doesn't have as much southerly and/coastal land which will feel the negative impacts of warming more severely.

Lest we forget millions of Americans spent the last half century moving to parts of the country that were already too hot to live before the feedback loop era.
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Taktix®
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 24 Aug 2019, 10:20

Also, if it's not plausible to some that Trump's taking orders from (or at least carrying water for) Putin, why the "let's invite Russia back to the G7" thing?
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

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Kolohe
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Kolohe » 24 Aug 2019, 11:20

Because Trump wants credit for 'making things happen' that seem like wins for 'peace' but are really the most superficial parts of international relations.

Putin probably wants back into the G7/8 for the diplomatic win, no doubt, but in the scheme of things, these days that would be such a minor thing for Russia's interests.

Plus, the reports are that Trump doesn't really care for the G7 anyway, so pushing for Putin to rejoin the club is a likely as not to be yet another example of him simply trolling for trolling's sake.
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JasonL
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 24 Aug 2019, 11:53

Taktix<img src= wrote:
">[quote="Taktix"]Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks Trump is intentionally wrecking our agricultural economy: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/10/trump-i ... china.html

But I'm sure it's just a coincidence. It's not like globally-warmed Siberia will have increasingly viable farmland in the coming decades or anything...
That article said literally nothing about intent or Putin. It’s text that’s only visible with crazy goggles.