Putin on the Writs

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thoreau
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 29 Jul 2019, 12:37

Warren, are you seriously arguing that the Senate Intelligence Committee report is old news?

For all I know it may be inaccurate--I'm actually a bit more "wait and see" about this than Taktix. But the issues outlined in the article are NOT things that I would characterize as the conventional wisdom on grylliade over the past couple years. Maybe people are right to doubt the things alleged in the article. Maybe they are wrong. Either way, it's not like most people here have spent a couple years saying the things in that article.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Dangerman » 29 Jul 2019, 12:51

For me at least, when you write things like 'I know some people here will secretly feel X and Y', I'm mildly insulted on behalf of the group identity we share as posters here, and I think it's embarrassing. It's close to toxic and I can't imagine that it will provide an avenue for a good discussion to follow. I think the responses you get will be proportionally worse for every notch of sarcasm and careless hyperbole. At first, months ago, I could understand that you were venting, but now you've moved into attacking people here who you won't name, but who are supposed to see themselves in your comments. That's a bad act IMO, and I think it's bad for the group to argue against things that aren't actually being said.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 29 Jul 2019, 12:55

thoreau wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 12:37
Warren, are you seriously arguing that the Senate Intelligence Committee report is old news?
No. I'm arguing that you persistently make postings with a "I absolutely agree that I am 100% wrong" formulation. You should give it a rest and make the least little effort to consider the best version of the people you're responding to.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Ellie » 29 Jul 2019, 13:10

I agree with Warren and Dangerman -- and I hope to make it clear that I'm not trying to dogpile on you or make you feel bad, but just to demonstrate how widely your tone is affecting those who read it. I feel a little hurt when you make the same comments over and over and over like "everything is fine" "anybody who would disagree is 100% crazy" "it's only troll farms" and so on. Like ... okay, I'm probably going to word this badly, but I'll give it a shot. It seems like you take people disagreeing with you about Trump/Russia as a personal attack. And not only do I not mean it as a personal attack, but it hurts my feelings when you take it that way, because I wouldn't make a personal attack on you. I consider you a friend.

I don't blame you for being upset over this stuff. (I was looking back through old posts last night and found something where I declared I hoped Trump would shit himself until he died, and I cannot say I've gained much chill in the intervening months.) This is a stressful political time. But your tone is making things more stressful here on the boards and it's hard for us to just sit around and shoot the shit and blow off intellectual steam, which I think is at this point what Grylliade is all about. Just try to take a deep breath and not take disagreements so personally -- because I promise we like you and think you're a good dude and are not being as snarky and calculated as you maybe think we are.

I hope this doesn't feel like a pile-on. Here is an astronomer kitten to say sorry if it does.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 29 Jul 2019, 13:56

Two things:
1) It's not like this came out of nowhere. For a couple years, some of us have pointed to a whole host of revelations in the mainstream press about unavory ties between the Trump administration and the Russian government, accompanied by the Russian government's very obvious efforts to help Trump (and perhaps the GOP more generally) via various sorts of election meddling, monetary donations to political groups in the US, etc. Likewise, we've pointed to Mitch McConnell's very stubborn refusal to respond to Russia in any way, and the administration's heel-dragging on sanctions and related matters.

What has the response been here? A lot of dismissal. A lot of "So what if people said stuff on Facebook?" (That's the origin of my "Yes, it's all just troll farms. Sure" snark.) A lot of "This isn't a conspiracy like the movies." Never mind that I and some others have repeatedly said that this isn't a movie conspiracy but is nonetheless a set of relationships that should not be acceptable from anyone in national security jobs. And (perhaps most maddeningly) a lot of "Putin is just a troll pursuing his self-interest" to which my answer is "Yes, and it's in our self-interest to not tolerate trolls hacking voter databases and whatnot."

We repeatedly point out the unacceptable relationships, the conflicts of interest, the tolerance of hacking that should not be tolerated, and the response is a maddening "Eh." If you don't personally get invested enough to write to Congress or knock on doors or donate or whatever, fine. There are plenty of good causes in this world that we can't all put equal energy into. If this isn't your cause, fine. But if your response is "So what if a politician is pursuing his self-interest by winking at highly compromising favors?" it sounds like excusing the inexcusable. There's a big difference between "I'm not knocking on doors over this" and "I don't see the big deal."

2) In the midst of all the denial, the excuses, the tolerance of moral compromise and idiocy, I go to work every day around people who do similar things. I spent more than an hour Friday talking to someone who tried to earnestly explain why we just have to accept that senior physics majors might be bad at freshman math and in the interests of equity we need to "meet them where they are at" BUT they also said "This doesn't mean we should lower standards." How are you not lowering standards when you spend massive amounts of class time (again, for seniors) going over freshman material?

If someone just said to me "Look, in this setting, you won't be able to do as much advanced stuff", well, fine. If someone says to me "You need to run every class at whatever level of remediation they need but no, I don't see how that's lowering standards" it sounds like the sort of denial I hear at family gatherings.

It feels like both my work and my outlet are full of "Come on, stop noticing the things right in front of your eyes."

I can shut up about Trump and Russia for the sake of harmony. There's a difference between not discussing something and saying the opposite of the reality in front of my eyes. If you guys want to just never discuss Trump and Russia again, that's cool. If you just want to never again talk about using "emergency powers" to move money around, that's cool. But if we do discuss these things, I can't just say "Oh, it's no big deal." I see a huge deal in front of my eyes, and saying otherwise makes me feel like I'm in a meeting at work and people are telling me to ignore the Ceci & Williams study of hiring bias.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 29 Jul 2019, 13:57

WOW
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 29 Jul 2019, 14:00

Also, Ellie, your astronomer kitten needs a non-binary look and a t-shirt with a scolding slogan if you want it to look like a realistic depiction of an astronomer.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 29 Jul 2019, 14:26

Is there room for it's bad but not the end of the world? Because from the other side that's what it feels like, and to be honest my entire world view is it's bad but not the end of the world and so I often feel like I'm accused of making excuses for not screaming. Key point here, I feel like most if not all of the time I'm being asked to say something is UTTERLY UNACCEPTABLE, but as a practical matter what I'm doing in choosing NOT THAT is actively assisting something else I find unacceptable.

Clear cut example - say it's a Kamala vs. Trump thing. What if I think Kamala as a 'nicer' person uses that clout to reinvigorate sentencing extremism and as a result way more people are in cages for way longer. That's a real moral concern, and it hedges my outrage never Trump instincts. One view of that is I'm expressing insufficient outrage or saying meh about Trump, but the other side of the coin is NEVER X by definition drops significance of all negative alternatives to X. I'm not inclined and do not generally accept NEVER X until you are actually at Hitlerian conditions. This is why I resist making even bad cases analogs to history's worst monsters.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 29 Jul 2019, 15:05

JasonL wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 14:26
I'm not inclined and do not generally accept NEVER X until you are actually at Hitlerian conditions. This is why I resist making even bad cases analogs to history's worst monsters.
Except if you don't say anything until you reach Full Hitler -- presumably "full Hitler post-1938," because pre-1938 Hitler had only been about as bad as Trump and Co. are now -- by then it's too late.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 29 Jul 2019, 15:20

I think very close to 100% of slippery slope arguments are terrible. Libertarians are particularly afflicted with them.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 29 Jul 2019, 15:23

JasonL wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 15:20
I think very close to 100% of slippery slope arguments are terrible.
So all those times you'd argue (for example) "If we allow this aspect of business to be regulated, the next step is full Berniebro if not full Chavez" -- do you no longer subscribe to such notions, or are they merely on hold until the next time a Democrat takes the White House?
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 29 Jul 2019, 15:40

I'd be interested in where I said that. I typically argue about the costs and scope of the regulation in question. There are times where the nature of the proposal in question is to create a regulatory regime that specifically grants authority forever over certain kinds of things. There are other times when the proposal itself carries very broad implications to a market that currently exists. Those are not the slippery slope form "If we allow A we will be communists soon thereafter". I don't believe that and if I said something that sounds like that I didn't express myself clearly.

I believe in lots of equilibria that can remain somewhat stable.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 29 Jul 2019, 15:55

JasonL wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 15:40

I believe in lots of equilibria that can remain somewhat stable.
Do you believe in a stable equilibrium of Grylliade?
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 29 Jul 2019, 16:24

This is our equilibrium.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 29 Jul 2019, 17:01

Warren wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 13:57
WOW
Can you elaborate?
thoreau wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 14:00
Also, Ellie, your astronomer kitten needs a non-binary look and a t-shirt with a scolding slogan if you want it to look like a realistic depiction of an astronomer.
I'm still waiting for my SJW astronomer kitten, FYI. :)
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 29 Jul 2019, 17:03

thoreau wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 17:01
Can you elaborate?
I don't want to.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Dangerman » 29 Jul 2019, 19:02

Thoreau, thanks for taking the time to say all that. I like you and think you bring a lot to the gryll, and I'm sorry that you feel so frustrated by the responses you get. I can only speak for myself when I say that I don't think you're wrong or an asshole, I just differ on the magnitude of the fucks I give and how likely it is that these issues are to have a meaningful impact. I respect your opinion, and I don't want you to not say what is on your mind, I only objected to the specific things that I outlined above. I think you have a huge heart, and I'm glad you're here.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 29 Jul 2019, 19:18

Thanks, DM.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 29 Jul 2019, 20:20

Sorry, I resent being called crazy in this thread and by private message for having a different opinion as to the threat level of everything going on vis a vis Trump and Russia/Putin.

You're free to think I'm misinformed and welcome even to name me as such (then I have a chance to defend my statements at least), but if you deem my posts not worth your time to respond substantively to, please just ignore or block me instead of condescendingly dismissing me as mentally ill.

If you look back at my previous posts in this thread, I have been pretty accurate on most things, as least enough so to merit a suspension of such derision.

It is because of how knowledgeable you all are that I am so pained to learn that you don't share my concern for the severity of everything going on. We're talking about actual election rigging. I understand the US system hasn't ever been the perfect "we the people" system taugh to us in school, and that both sides are guilty of instances of election trickery over our history. But I believe reasonable people can agree that a hostile foreign country holding sham elections in the US is orders of magnitude different from what we've seen in our history, and I'm so alarmist because if we wait until we can verify it has already happened in 2020 it will be too late.

I've only ever been outside the United State twice in my life, and one barely counts because it was only a night trip to the Canada side of the Niagra Falls. So living in the US under its flawed but largely representative government is my world, and its collapse is, quite literally, the end of my world.

Is it not yours? Do not your lives and livelihoods depend upon the US being governed by those elected by the people rather than those appointed by the mechanisms of autocracy, even if they all are a bunch of shits?
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 29 Jul 2019, 20:27

Taktix® wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 20:20
You're free to think I'm misinformed and welcome even to name me as such (then I have a chance to defend my statements at least), but if you deem my posts not worth your time to respond substantively to, please just ignore or block me instead of condescendingly dismissing me as mentally ill.
I don't agree that things are as bad as you make them out to be. If I have been rude, I apologize.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Number 6 » 29 Jul 2019, 20:56

Dr. T: I say this as someone who has been reading your posts since the beginning, who has met you IRL, and who regards you as among my favorite people on the planet- I think things are really starting to get to you. The things getting to you are, without a doubt, worthy of disgust and outrage. But I feel like the totally fair fury you feel at both your cow-orkers and Trump apologists is making you into someone you've never been. No one here is a fan of Trump, or the sort of person to suggest that it's totally fine for senior physics majors to not understand the sort of math that is foundational to your field. We may have disagreements, but we're all people of good will, and we're all friends here. While some here may think that there are no good options apart for dealing with Trump other than booting him in the next election, no one has said that the things he's done are insignificant or anything other than shitty.
The only thing I can suggest is that you try to find a way to view all of this from some remove.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 29 Jul 2019, 21:07

Number 6 wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 20:56
no one has said that the things he's done are insignificant or anything other than shitty.
There's been a lot of "So what?" regarding Trump's lackluster enforcement of sanctions, his campaign's refusal to call the FBI when offered dirt by the Russian government, and other stuff. There's been a lot of "So what?" in regards to actions and entanglements that would result in literally anyone else losing jobs that involve sensitive information, both in the public or private sectors.

I can agree to walk away from this subject, but the "So what" responses are real, they are there, they are not hallucinations on my part, and the only reason I won't link to them is this:
The only thing I can suggest is that you try to find a way to view all of this from some remove.
I need to walk away from this topic.

Also, I think you err here:
making you into someone you've never been
I was like this before, back when "Should people face punishment for instituting a policy of torture?" was a topic of current debate. We eventually let that go, and we'll be better off not asking if that reflects well on us. I will let the whole topic of Trump and Russia go as well.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Dangerman » 29 Jul 2019, 21:37

Taktix, I don't know if I've done the stuff you're talking about, but I don't think you're mentally ill or crazy. I just don't come to the same conclusions you have, given much of the same information. I would ask you, do you think we also are reasonable people (those of us who you respect and esteem)? And how do you feel about our reaction to your strong feelings about this issue? I think that we mirror each other; a feeling that the other person is simply seeing things in a way which we do not believe is warranted. And that's ok until it seems like the issue at hand is an existential threat, at which point it becomes... Something Else. There are issues we talk about here that reveal these divides, and at some point we have to accept that other people are not like us in many ways, and are unlikely to change their views for reasons that are not available to us. When we encounter these, I think we need to recognize what is happening and treat these differences with respect, because no amount of strenuous arguing will convince people that mayonnaise is gross.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Pham Nuwen » 29 Jul 2019, 22:49

Thoreau and taktix,

I love you guys. I do. I am just not happy with the all out effort to get rid of Trump. I mean everyone focuses on his shittiness and lose track of the real shit he has nothing to do with, I feel. Heard about Epstein lately? What about the camps? Fuck no you haven't. But hey! He said some awful shitty stuff on twitter and everyone's jumped in feet first. Both sides. Blah blah blah.

I just don't think you should be able to remove a democratically elected leader without smoking gun shit. Smoking gun shit we will never get because it's been deleted or hidden. And there's a Senate full of peeps who won't convict. He's awful. I don't like him. I just get really really REALLY nervous when I hear about how we need to, MUST, remove him. You better believe this shit is going to come up one way or another with the next president. I don't want to live in a banana republic.

It's not about being above the shit. It's about focusing on said shit that isn't immediately obvious. Russia has clearly influenced American politics. No question about it. There isn't shit you can do til November of 2020. You have to accept that. You have to. Please stop making people tune you out. Because you have more influence than you probably realize, small though it may be.

Chill the fuck out guys.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 29 Jul 2019, 23:02

Pham, I'm dropping everything related to Trump and Russia. And I agree with you that there's a lot of danger in this situation. If your stance is that impeaching is even more dangerous than not impeaching, then you might be surprised how close my analysis is to yours. I weight a few variables differently, but I agree that both paths are fraught with risk.

As to this, though:
Pham Nuwen wrote:
29 Jul 2019, 22:49
Heard about Epstein lately? What about the camps? Fuck no you haven't.
Let's not pretend that he detention camps were a nice, safe topic of discussion.

And, whatever you think about what I've said about the camps, I've also donated a lot of money and plan to donate more. I'm acting, not just talking.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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