Putin on the Writs

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Mo
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 05 Dec 2016, 21:39

What's odd is Russian engineering is famous for high tolerance reliability. My feeling is that this does not work as well in a salt water environment.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Aresen
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 05 Dec 2016, 21:39

Scanning the wikipedia article on the Kuznetsov, I found this:
The infallible Wikipedia wrote:She was originally commissioned in the Soviet Navy, and was intended to be the lead ship of her class, but the only other ship of her class, Varyag, was never completed or commissioned by the Soviet, Russian or Ukrainian navy. This second hull was eventually sold to the People's Republic of China by Ukraine, completed in Dalian and launched as Liaoning
Is that the same carrier that the Perpetually Alarmed Over Threats to American Pre-eminence have been wetting their pants about for the last four years?
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dbcooper
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by dbcooper » 05 Dec 2016, 21:41

Mo wrote:What's odd is Russian engineering is famous for high tolerance reliability. My feeling is that this does not work as well in a salt water environment.
I suspect that's just a popular falsehood that somehow took hold in lay circles. Among engineers I've known, Russian stuff has just been thought to be shitty.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

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Aresen
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 05 Dec 2016, 21:43

Mo wrote:What's odd is Russian engineering is famous for high tolerance reliability. My feeling is that this does not work as well in a salt water environment.
Russian engineering and reliability, particularly in the military, has gone way downhill since the Great Patriotic War. They can't even steal designs correctly (see Concordski).
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Most people don't realize Stephen King downplayed the horror that is Maine. - Jennifer

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Jennifer
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 05 Dec 2016, 21:44

Kolohe wrote:It's harder than keeping a nuke plant running at sea, actually.
Even on-ship nuke plants are established rather than experimental technology -- my dad spent almost his whole navy career dealing with them, starting long before I was born. But whether powered by nukes or conventional fuels, keeping one aircraft carrier in workable, functional shape shouldn't be that hard for a country with Russia's resources and experience, despite the many ways that standard is inferior to America's. Seriously -- losing a fighter jet in the drink because the fucking cable broke?
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Mo
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 05 Dec 2016, 21:45

dbcooper wrote:
Mo wrote:What's odd is Russian engineering is famous for high tolerance reliability. My feeling is that this does not work as well in a salt water environment.
I suspect that's just a popular falsehood that somehow took hold in lay circles. Among engineers I've known, Russian stuff has just been thought to be shitty.
Or it may just be due to catching lightning in a bottle with the AK-47. It's ubiquity and reliability in shitty conditions is pretty famous.

Though I would say, "keeps working" and "shitty" are not mutually exclusive. Everyone has had some random machine that kept working, but is still utter crap.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Kolohe
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Kolohe » 05 Dec 2016, 21:47

when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 05 Dec 2016, 21:59

Mo wrote:
dbcooper wrote:
Mo wrote:What's odd is Russian engineering is famous for high tolerance reliability. My feeling is that this does not work as well in a salt water environment.
I suspect that's just a popular falsehood that somehow took hold in lay circles. Among engineers I've known, Russian stuff has just been thought to be shitty.
Or it may just be due to catching lightning in a bottle with the AK-47. It's ubiquity and reliability in shitty conditions is pretty famous.

Though I would say, "keeps working" and "shitty" are not mutually exclusive. Everyone has had some random machine that kept working, but is still utter crap.
AK-47, T-34s, Soyuz.

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 05 Dec 2016, 22:01

As far as I can tell all non US, non British carriers burst into flames with some regularity.

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dbcooper
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by dbcooper » 05 Dec 2016, 22:07

Wasn't the T-34 based on a Christie design?
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 05 Dec 2016, 22:07

Jennifer wrote:
Kolohe wrote:It's harder than keeping a nuke plant running at sea, actually.
Even on-ship nuke plants are established rather than experimental technology -- my dad spent almost his whole navy career dealing with them, starting long before I was born. But whether powered by nukes or conventional fuels, keeping one aircraft carrier in workable, functional shape shouldn't be that hard for a country with Russia's resources and experience, despite the many ways that standard is inferior to America's. Seriously -- losing a fighter jet in the drink because the fucking cable broke?
I won't argue this with you but I'd add to Kolohe's point that the nuke plant has an airport on its roof. Yes, the nuclear power plants are standardized. Nothing else is. No two U.S. carriers are even close to alike except in tonnage and purpose. For that matter, from the time construction begins on a carrier until the time it is commissioned, the technology has changed so much that tear-outs and re-dos are a big part of the job, a fact that causes naval architects to have nightmares. They're the size of small towns and stuff is forever breaking down here and there in any town you can imagine. Repair and maintenance is an ongoing battle against entropy and entropy eventually wins.

Further, the U.S. Navy has decades of experience with carrier takeoffs and landings and it still has, um, incidents from time to time. It's a fucking scary thing to be on the deck of a carrier in operation and human error is still a thing, too. We were the only nation on Earth with carriers for a long, long time.

Plus, as repeatedly noted, Russian engineering sucks. The best it ever gets is with its military equipment and weapons, but that says more about how crappy everything else is than how good that stuff is. I don't know if it's true, as I've been told, that the first Apollo-Soyuz mission was the equivalent of connecting a Ferrari to a covered wagon, but I wouldn't be all that surprised if it were.

You're right, cable shouldn't break. That doesn't take an engineering degree to figure out. But if I were the Russians, I'd be buying my cable from the U.S.
Last edited by D.A. Ridgely on 05 Dec 2016, 22:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Mo
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 05 Dec 2016, 22:08

dbcooper wrote:Wasn't the T-34 based on a Christie design?
It was.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Jennifer
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 05 Dec 2016, 22:12

D.A. Ridgely wrote: You're right, cable shouldn't break. That doesn't take an engineering to figure out.
Tugboats shouldn't be standard on blue-water navy trips, either. Which is why I remain amazed that Russia has let its one aircraft carrier get that shoddy.
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dbcooper
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by dbcooper » 05 Dec 2016, 22:13

Following on from DAR's post, impact mechanics is complicated stuff, and those cables have high performance materials requirements. This is tricky business.
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Jadagul
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jadagul » 05 Dec 2016, 22:18

dbcooper wrote:
Mo wrote:What's odd is Russian engineering is famous for high tolerance reliability. My feeling is that this does not work as well in a salt water environment.
I suspect that's just a popular falsehood that somehow took hold in lay circles. Among engineers I've known, Russian stuff has just been thought to be shitty.
I was once at a party of applied physicists who decided to play the "What's your most ridiculous Russian engineering spectacular failure story?" game. This is apparently enough of a thing to be a standard point of discussion.

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dbcooper
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by dbcooper » 05 Dec 2016, 22:23

I'm a big fan of when someone forgot to replace an exhaust filter and covered a town in weaponised anthrax spores.
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Jadagul
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jadagul » 05 Dec 2016, 22:27

My favorite one from this particular exchange--and the only one I really remember clearly--is jamming _both_ the safety valves on a pressure chamber and embedding it several feet into the concrete ceiling.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 05 Dec 2016, 22:31

Jennifer wrote:
Kolohe wrote:It's harder than keeping a nuke plant running at sea, actually.
Even on-ship nuke plants are established rather than experimental technology -- my dad spent almost his whole navy career dealing with them, starting long before I was born. But whether powered by nukes or conventional fuels, keeping one aircraft carrier in workable, functional shape shouldn't be that hard for a country with Russia's resources and experience, despite the many ways that standard is inferior to America's. Seriously -- losing a fighter jet in the drink because the fucking cable broke?
People have known for several decades what the right way is to keep an aircraft carrier working. People have also known for several centuries that if you want things done the right way you shouldn't count on Russians in Russia. Russians in America can be wonderfully meticulous scientists and engineers, but Russians in Russia, working in Russian organizations, with Russian bosses and Russian incentives and Russian organizational politics and Russian supply chains, tend to fuck things up.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Aresen
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 05 Dec 2016, 22:36

However, Russians are truly excellent hackers.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 05 Dec 2016, 22:51

dbcooper wrote:I'm a big fan of when someone forgot to replace an exhaust filter and covered a town in weaponised anthrax spores.
How about that time that they built a type if nuclear reactor, one of which catastrophically failed in a manner literally no other reactor type could fail, resulting in a massive area that is unfit for human habitation?

Or that time they dumped so much radioactive waste into a lake that one could get a lethal dose in about an hour from dust when the lake is partislly dried up in the summer?

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Aresen
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 05 Dec 2016, 23:15

If I had to pick a 'favorite' Russian engineering disaster, it would be the Aral Sea.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 05 Dec 2016, 23:21

The Nedelin catastrophe is another good one.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 Dec 2016, 00:10

Chernobyl is pretty good for an impressive fuckup.
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thoreau
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 06 Dec 2016, 00:51

Soviet Engineering Fuckups would be a good band name.

Sent from a phone so their may be speling errors and autocorrect snafu's.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Andrew
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Andrew » 06 Dec 2016, 06:59

Eric the .5b wrote:Chernobyl is pretty good for an impressive fuckup.
Yeah. "Let's build a nuclear reactor with a questionable-at-best-design, and then specifically operate in the conditions we know will lead to failure as a 'test,' but let's also disable every safety feature while we do it."
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