Putin on the Writs

User avatar
Taktix®
Posts: 7910
Joined: 07 May 2010, 05:29
Location: The Caribbean

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 06 Mar 2019, 00:30

JasonL wrote:
05 Mar 2019, 06:46
Take any issue. Ask “how does Putin benefit” make up a story, assign causality. Rinse, repeat.
Oh gosh, how dare I speculate in my speculative post.

You want verified facts of all the shit Russia's up to? Just search the news. There's no ambiguity to what Russia is up to and the facts are widely, publicly available.

I'm just sniffin' the trail ahead to look out for an ambush.

And the reason it's so easy to find a way that Putin benefits from actions Trump takes is because, well, Putin benefits in some way from nearly every action Trump takes. It is, in my estimation, the only common element that is present in all the disparate and seemingly politically-erratic things Trump does.
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

User avatar
Dangerman
Posts: 6583
Joined: 07 May 2010, 12:26

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Dangerman » 06 Mar 2019, 11:19

To be frank, Taktix, you don't come across as speculating. You seem to assert that these are bald and obvious facts that lead to a single conclusion, and you appear bewildered that other people are not immediately convinced. Then when people are incredulous regarding your dot-connecting, instead of considering their perspective, you dismiss them and tell them to 'just google it' instead of making any sort of in-depth argument for your PoV.

If you're just asking questions, then please also just accept answers.

User avatar
Taktix®
Posts: 7910
Joined: 07 May 2010, 05:29
Location: The Caribbean

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 06 Mar 2019, 12:11

Sheesh, you'd think after 15+ years of posting here I could get the benefit of the doubt once in a while.

I say "just Google it" because there's overwhelming, widely-available evidence that something very bad is going on between Trump and Russia. And I have posted links before, I just didn't want to be a repeater. So here you go:

This is The Moscow Project: https://themoscowproject.org/ Yes, the site is run by the Center for American Progress, which is a liberal think tank, but all the claims have links to reputable news sources and publications (as opposed to Michael Moore-esque cherry picking). It's transparent enough that you can look for yourself and decide whether they are well-sourced enough for you to trust.

I just found out about this Reddit from Vice News that other day: https://www.reddit.com/r/keep_track/ I haven't been able to go through the whole thing yet, but it look like a very comprehensive source for all things Russia/Trump, and again I'm only talking about stuff that include links to reputable sources, not just what some idiot put on Reddit.

I'm only speculating because I have to be - I'm no diplomat or foreign affairs expert and have no access to any information that you don't have. I've just been following the news closely since the 2016 election, and, having zoomed out after taking it all in, have come to the conclusion that the U.S. is either currently under attack or will be very shortly. It's just that this new war is not being fought on the battlefield (yet) but rather, it's a battle for our minds and our values and our agency. This may just be the way 21st century wars are fought.

And I'm not so rah-rah America to think that we're invulnerable and can't be caught off guard. In fact, the America's M.O. since at least WWII has been to be caught off guard and reluctantly dragged into conflict.

I'm not "assert(ing) that these are bald and obvious facts that lead to a single conclusion," I am straight up declaring there are bald and obvious facts that lead to the singular conclusion that Russia is fucking with us hard and has been since 2016. Do you know how far Putin intends to take this?

Maybe you think it's just some dumb prank, but I take it seriously because human beings are dying as a direct result, whether it's children (fucking children) being murdered and sexually abused by our government on the southern border or pending, potentially bloody conflicts in Venezuela or North Korea.

So what do I need next time? How much of your homework do I need to turn in? Please, tell me how detailed my assertions need to be in the future to avoid being hand-waved away by the Trump-apologist wing of Grylliate (which has yet to offer any alternative explanation as to why all these horrible things have been happening to our country for the last 3 years).

ETA: Also, if you haven't yet, like/follow my FB page: https://www.facebook.com/metafederalism/ You can just scroll down the feed and see nearly-daily evidence not just of Trump/Russia, but of all the awful things Trump does from both the left and right perspective.
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

User avatar
Dangerman
Posts: 6583
Joined: 07 May 2010, 12:26

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Dangerman » 06 Mar 2019, 12:41

Taktix® wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 12:11

So what do I need next time? How much of your homework do I need to turn in? Please, tell me how detailed my assertions need to be in the future to avoid being hand-waved away by the Trump-apologist wing of Grylliate (which has yet to offer any alternative explanation as to why all these horrible things have been happening to our country for the last 3 years).
When you characterize people disagreeing with you in a respectful and thoughtful way, and providing an alternative explanation, as Painboy did on the last page, as 'hand-waving' by 'Trump-apologists', then it doesn't matter how detailed you are.

In fact, 'lack of details' is not the critique I made.

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13411
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 Mar 2019, 23:14

Taktix® wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 12:11
Sheesh, you'd think after 15+ years of posting here I could get the benefit of the doubt once in a while.
I've never gotten it; why should you? :D

But more seriously, I'm not in the Team Red end of the pool here, but you're not only not making a convincing case, you're not making a case. You start out linking an article on farming bankruptcies and declare that Putin is trying to cripple our food supply. Notwithstanding that the article doesn't even mention Russia and you provide no argument or support for any part of that claim. When pressed on the point, you don't actually back it up, you just move your goalposts to the claim that there's "something very bad...going on between Trump and Russia" in a general sense, which is both true and doesn't actually support your specific claim about Putin trying to cripple American agriculture. (I mean, Christ, it's not like Trump's supporters actually like and support the stupid-ass policies he promised them or anything...)

I hit the Moscow Project's search engine, and I'm seeing fuck-all about agriculture or food, and the only mention of "farms" is troll farms. The only tariffs discussed there are on metals. I'm not going to snipe-hunt across your other sources or Google for a claim you're pushing..

Now, if you actually have any evidence to link for this, great. Otherwise, as a friend of mine says, "I can make shit up, too!", and I also can sound like Dale Gribble when I do it.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 15721
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 06 Mar 2019, 23:39

Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 23:14
(I mean, Christ, it's not like Trump's supporters actually like and support the stupid-ass policies he promised them or anything...)
Oh, they like those policies. They just didn't think those policies should apply to them.

(I suppose I could have stopped after the fourth word of that second sentence.)
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 27873
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 06 Mar 2019, 23:53

I think it's reasonable to suspect that Donald Trump, as an individual, is compromised and manipulable by Russia, and that his campaign and initial cabinet were compromised because he was compromised and figured he could get a real estate deal in Moscow if he kissed Putin's ass.

That's different from assuming that Putin's tentacles run deep into US policy. Trump's administration has a level of palace intrigue and internecine fighting seen in few other presidencies. It's not clear that anyone could extend tentacles very far into that mess, let alone keep them there with the rapid pace of departures. Frankly, the biggest fruits of Russian influence came early: The platform language at the 2016 Republican Convention (not of huge policy consequence, but quite revealing nonetheless) and the appointment of Rex Tillerson (deep friendship with Russia) as Sec of State. Tillerson is gone, as is Flynn (who had dinner with Putin and Jill Stein).

Trump seems to remain very Putin-friendly, but the ever-changing cast of characters around him is not particularly Moscow-friendly by the standards of the modern GOP. As a matter of principle, Trump should probably hang just to make it clear that in this Republic the head of state doesn't get to mix his personal business dealings (whether at home or abroad) with public policy, but at this point the biggest benefit Putin reaps is from the general disorganization of the executive branch, not from specifically orchestrated policies.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 27873
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 06 Mar 2019, 23:56

(Now, the extent to which Russian money funneled through the NRA influences Congressional Republicans is another matter, but Congress is becoming a vestigial organ in regards to foreign policy and security policy, so it's not entirely clear what Moscow gets in exchange for letting its intelligence agents be penetrated by the NRA.)
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Taktix®
Posts: 7910
Joined: 07 May 2010, 05:29
Location: The Caribbean

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 06 Mar 2019, 23:57

Must I make a complete case every time I have a random observation that I'd like to share? I thought I was among friends here.

And no, I'm not just blaming Putin for everything bad Trump does, but is it really too conspiratorial to wonder periodically if some of the actions taken by his administration were at the direction at Putin? Given Helsinki and the Deripaska sanction lifting and and the phoning Putin for advice on North Korea?
Taktix® wrote:
02 Mar 2019, 21:23
This is why the trade war is happening; Putin is trying to cripple our food supply: https://www.axios.com/farmer-bankruptci ... SwEUYjnwxk
I made one declarative statement about a news article and also the link to said article and suddenly I'm having to defend a Trumpology thesis.

Sorry, I work in a restaurant in Florida and have exactly zero intelligent people to chat about the news with. I used to talk with my family but they've all become Fox News bots. So sorry for sharing a link and making an off-the-cuff statement that I thought might spark an interesting discussion. I'll be sure to have my bibliography together before I dare post here again.

Deuces.
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 15721
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 06 Mar 2019, 23:59

The biggest benefit to Putin of the Trump presidency is the sheer disruption Trump has created in US foreign policy, especially wrt the US relations with its traditional allies.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 27873
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 06 Mar 2019, 23:59

Deripaska and NK are both plausible topics of Russian influence.

But the food supply as a subject of a successful Russian operation? That's too close to "The Communists want to contaminate our precious bodily fluids" for me.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13411
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Eric the .5b » 07 Mar 2019, 00:33

Taktix® wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 23:57
And no, I'm not just blaming Putin for everything bad Trump does, but is it really too conspiratorial to wonder periodically if some of the actions taken by his administration were at the direction at Putin? Given Helsinki and the Deripaska sanction lifting and and the phoning Putin for advice on North Korea?
Which is it? Are you wondering, absent evidence, about the plausibility of Putin's influence on agricultural policy, or are you trying to break the truth to all us Trump-apologists who need to find and read a zillion links before we embarrass ourselves further?

Saying things one way invites discussion. The other just sounds like, "Wake up, sheeple!", and I get enough of that bullshit already.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
Taktix®
Posts: 7910
Joined: 07 May 2010, 05:29
Location: The Caribbean

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 20 Mar 2019, 02:54

Ok, can we agree that we're under attack, at least?

Because this is what under attack looks like:

(Source Article, with links to proof for each graph: https://www.npr.org/2018/04/25/58609961 ... 0sTLl-x_Dk)
Updated March 18, 2019

What are "active measures?"

The Russian government launched a broad influence campaign against the United States starting in 2014. Intelligence professionals call it the latest examples of "active measures," secret tools of statecraft that have been used for centuries and were employed throughout the Cold War.

In recent years they have included many interlocking elements:

Russian operatives visited the United States to conduct reconnaissance in several states and cities across the country.

Cyberattacks targeted more than 500 people or institutions, including the Democratic National Committee, former Secretary of State Colin Powell, top military commanders and the chairman of Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign, John Podesta. Much of that information was later released publicly to embarrass the victims via WikiLeaks or another website, DCLeaks, which was set up by Russian intelligence services. The U.S. has charged 12 Russian military intelligence officers in those cyberattacks.

Cyberattacks probed state election systems and their vendors. A number of states were targeted for covert exploration. Officials say that no votes were changed, but those details remain unclear; information was stolen about roughly 500,000 voters.

Russian operatives used fake or deceptive accounts on social media to amplify controversy in the United States, pitting American users against each other and even organizing some real-world events from afar. The U.S. has charged 13 Russians and three Russian entities in that case.

Russian operatives may have forged documents or other secret material in an attempt to confuse FBI or other intelligence officials at levels only they could see.

Russian operatives established contact with American political organizations in order to try to wield influence in the U.S. to further Russia's aims. One woman has admitted in court that she served as an unregistered Russian agent inside the U.S.

Russian operatives made several overtures to Donald Trump's 2016 campaign, offering dirt on Clinton or high-level meetings with Russian leaders. Contacts continued after Election Day with key top Trump aides. President Trump and his advisers then and now have denied any conspiracy with the Russian attack on the 2016 presidential election.

Why did the Russians do this?

Russian President Vladimir Putin likely had several reasons for ordering the campaign.

He was angry at what he viewed as American interference in Ukraine, in Russia's front yard, under former President Barack Obama.
He bore a longstanding personal animus against Clinton from her tenure as secretary of state and probably feared the policies she'd adopt toward Russia if she had been elected in 2016.

Putin said in Helsinki on July 16, 2018, that he supported Trump's election because he welcomed Trump's promise of better relations with Russia.
By the 2016 election cycle in the U.S., Putin may have believed the United States had launched an influence campaign against him before he launched the one against it and other countries in the West.

Putin probably also wanted simply to sow chaos and undermine faith in democracy across the West — Russia also has attacked other elections in Western Europe — and exacerbate political divisions that already were becoming inflamed.

How do we know?

Russia's support for Trump was open — Putin spoke about it as did government-controlled or aligned sources. Plus, the U.S. intelligence community reportedly had a human source close to Putin that confirmed his instructions to interfere in the election.

There also is a wealth of signals intelligence, including intercepted communications between Russian officials or between Russians and others.

Part of that intelligence is what has underpinned indictments brought by Justice Department special counsel Robert Mueller against a number of Russians connected with social media agitation and cyberattacks.

Other open evidence includes extensive congressional testimony and a leaked report by the National Security Agency that documented a cyberattack on an elections vendor by Russia's military intelligence agency, the GRU.

Could it happen again?

It never stopped, say the heads of the top U.S. intelligence agencies. Russian cyberattacks continue and Russia also keeps using social networks, especially Facebook and Twitter, to turn up the volume on political controversy within the United States. And the creation of what could be provocative fraudulent materials could also still be underway.

What is the United States doing?

Washington has kept up the diplomatic and economic pressure it has been applying to Russia since its invasion of Ukraine. Under Presidents Obama and then Trump, diplomats have been kicked out, their offices closed and sanctions have remained in effect.

There also are unofficial signs the United States is responding more aggressively behind the scenes. According to one report, U.S. Cyber Command sent messages to individuals it knew were connected with Russia's active measures to let them know America was watching and to try to persuade them to stop.

According to another report, on Election Day 2018 CyberCom shut down Internet access to the Russian office responsible for social media agitation on to take it temporarily offline and ensure less mischief related to American democracy as many voters went to the polls.
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

User avatar
Kolohe
Posts: 13914
Joined: 06 May 2010, 10:51

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Kolohe » 20 Mar 2019, 11:16

Cyberattacks are crimes.

Peddling bullshit is a bit harder call.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 23869
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 20 Mar 2019, 11:24

Agree. We should take the stance that Russia, China, Israel and probably some others are actively engaged in influence campaigns and some sliding scale of cyberattacks at all times. Be aware of the former and beef up as necessary counter measures and for the latter. It is probably best to think of China and Russia as a state of ongoing cyber warfare or at least cyber cold warfare.

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 27873
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 20 Mar 2019, 11:26

On the propaganda front, Russia isn't doing anything that Americans won't do to themselves via cable news and social media. If we're vulnerable to Russian propaganda it's only because we're so eager to swallow bullshit.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 23869
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 20 Mar 2019, 11:41

thoreau wrote:
20 Mar 2019, 11:26
On the propaganda front, Russia isn't doing anything that Americans won't do to themselves via cable news and social media. If we're vulnerable to Russian propaganda it's only because we're so eager to swallow bullshit.
I feel this way about many things in the public conversation right now. I feel like there's a lot of seeking blame for things that are actually like "people are kinda stupid and mean and have heads in butts".

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 13411
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Eric the .5b » 20 Mar 2019, 19:28

Kolohe wrote:
20 Mar 2019, 11:16
Cyberattacks are crimes.
And the sorts of crimes that agents of nation-states commit all the fucking time.

Yes, Russia is a shitty state and Putin is vile. But there comes a point when someone's very obviously seeking every single excuse to freak out about a subject.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
Taktix®
Posts: 7910
Joined: 07 May 2010, 05:29
Location: The Caribbean

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 21 Mar 2019, 02:14

Freaking out by... posting it on the internet! On a semi-like-minded message board! With the assumption you all are functioning adults who read the basic news enough that you needn't be re-reminded of the obvious!

Besides, if I just share the top headline shit you already know I'd bore ya' to death.

:)
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24379
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 21 Mar 2019, 04:59

JasonL wrote:
20 Mar 2019, 11:24
Agree. We should take the stance that Russia, China, Israel and probably some others are actively engaged in influence campaigns and some sliding scale of cyberattacks at all times. Be aware of the former and beef up as necessary counter measures and for the latter. It is probably best to think of China and Russia as a state of ongoing cyber warfare or at least cyber cold warfare.
Yeah, cyber warfare would be more akin to trying to do things like shut down the electrical grid or take down medical facilities.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
dhex
Posts: 15902
Joined: 05 May 2010, 16:05
Location: 'murica

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by dhex » 21 Mar 2019, 05:36

isn't it fucking weird we're still calling this "cyber"? and only in this category e.g. gov't or gov't aligned entities?

you'd think we'd have flying neo tokyo in the year 20XX already.
"I do wear my New Balance tennis shoes when I'm wearing cargo shorts, though, because truth in advertising." - lunch

User avatar
Dangerman
Posts: 6583
Joined: 07 May 2010, 12:26

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Dangerman » 21 Mar 2019, 12:34

It's pushing the definition to have these be 'cyber attacks' because cybernetics implies a direct animal input /sense platform, but these attacks are just network centered. It's not like they're hacking pacemakers or using a direct neural input to steer them. Or even a Nintendo power glove.

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 23869
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 21 Mar 2019, 14:44

Wanted - something that gets at "cyber cold warfare" but is way better sounding.

User avatar
Pham Nuwen
Posts: 7676
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 02:17

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Pham Nuwen » 21 Mar 2019, 14:53

Digital realpolitik?
Goddamn libertarian message board. Hugh Akston

leave me to my mescaline smoothie in peace, please. dhex

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 4017
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Painboy » 21 Mar 2019, 15:43

JasonL wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 14:44
Wanted - something that gets at "cyber cold warfare" but is way better sounding.
Cyber Fracas

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests