Putin on the Writs

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 27083
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 27 Oct 2018, 11:04

Regardless of the source of the malfunction, I've never understood what is wrong with simple paper ballots. Analog backup, lots of transparency, unhackable.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 15236
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 27 Oct 2018, 11:11

thoreau wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 11:04
Regardless of the source of the malfunction, I've never understood what is wrong with simple paper ballots. Analog backup, lots of transparency, unhackable.
Paper ballots are fine when you are voting for one position (e.g. in a Westminister Style Parliamentary election), but when you are voting for many positions, they are a real pain in the ass. Your options are basically A) one ballot for each position, so people have to deal with a huge stack of paper
B) A single ballot for multiple positions, which means that either you process each ballot multiple times or you have to have someone transcribe the results onto a tally sheet, with all the error/fraud potential that entails.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 25508
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 27 Oct 2018, 11:34

thoreau wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 11:04
Regardless of the source of the malfunction, I've never understood what is wrong with simple paper ballots. Analog backup, lots of transparency, unhackable.
I support a paper ballot if it's counted by machine. Which is the most common method I've encountered.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
Highway
Posts: 13098
Joined: 12 May 2011, 00:22
Location: the Electric Ocean

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Highway » 27 Oct 2018, 11:40

There's a way easier explanation for at least the ones in Georgia than "Russia". Brian Kemp. You're going tell me that a guy who thinks it's fine to disqualify hundreds of thousands of citizens for whatever spurious reason he can gin up, who thinks it's fine to make it nearly impossible for "the wrong people" to vote, would think that it's somehow more wrong to change those "wrong people"'s votes to the right vote? I wouldn't buy that.

And we use paper ballots with machine counting. This one was big: 2 large pages front and back. If you mess up the ballot, it spits it back out and you go get another one to fill out correctly (like if you picked too many people for a race). I will grant that someone could screw around with the counting machine. But there are still the ballots available for a recount should something go wrong (and if you found that it was a machine that had been tampered with, you could still machine count the ballots with a machine that was trusted). I like the system much much more than the touchscreens we had through 2012.
"Sharks do not go around challenging people to games of chance like dojo breakers."

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 23761
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 27 Oct 2018, 11:43

Team Highway.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 27083
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 27 Oct 2018, 12:14

Aresen wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 11:11
thoreau wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 11:04
Regardless of the source of the malfunction, I've never understood what is wrong with simple paper ballots. Analog backup, lots of transparency, unhackable.
Paper ballots are fine when you are voting for one position (e.g. in a Westminister Style Parliamentary election), but when you are voting for many positions, they are a real pain in the ass. Your options are basically A) one ballot for each position, so people have to deal with a huge stack of paper
B) A single ballot for multiple positions, which means that either you process each ballot multiple times or you have to have someone transcribe the results onto a tally sheet, with all the error/fraud potential that entails.
Paper read by machine. No human transcription, and you have three counts: the analog backup, the count transmitted from the machine to the central repository, and the machine's hard drive. If any of those 3 counts differ then you can detect tampering. And the paper ballots and hard drive can (and should) be transported to the central elections in separate vehicles.
Highway wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 11:40
There's a way easier explanation for at least the ones in Georgia than "Russia". Brian Kemp. You're going tell me that a guy who thinks it's fine to disqualify hundreds of thousands of citizens for whatever spurious reason he can gin up, who thinks it's fine to make it nearly impossible for "the wrong people" to vote, would think that it's somehow more wrong to change those "wrong people"'s votes to the right vote? I wouldn't buy that.

And we use paper ballots with machine counting. This one was big: 2 large pages front and back. If you mess up the ballot, it spits it back out and you go get another one to fill out correctly (like if you picked too many people for a race). I will grant that someone could screw around with the counting machine. But there are still the ballots available for a recount should something go wrong (and if you found that it was a machine that had been tampered with, you could still machine count the ballots with a machine that was trusted). I like the system much much more than the touchscreens we had through 2012.
This.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 23222
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 27 Oct 2018, 15:34

JasonL wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 10:59
Mechanical stuff happens with machine for 15 years, normal. Same mechanical thing happens 2018 - definitely Russia.
In the case of the computerized voting machines, it's not "mechanical"; it's software (or code, or whatever).
Highway wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 11:40
There's a way easier explanation for at least the ones in Georgia than "Russia". Brian Kemp.
Agree; the man's not even pretending to care about small-d democratic principles anymore. But, assuming the Russians are interested in making Americans lose faith in our democratic systems wherever they can, it definitely helps them to have the support of the ruling (though very unpopular) party.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 3870
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Painboy » 27 Oct 2018, 16:26

Taktix® wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 03:21
Oh, look. Voting machines are doing weird glitchy stuff that ends in Republican votes.

I'm sure it's fine. We're fine. I'm fine.
It seems it was due to bad UI/user error.
"The Hart eSlate machines are not malfunctioning, the problems being reported are a result of user error — usually voters hitting a button or using the selection wheel before the screen is finished rendering," said Sam Taylor, spokesman for the office of Secretary of State Rolando Pablos.

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 23761
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 27 Oct 2018, 16:31

That’s not user error, that’s bad product design.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 27083
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 27 Oct 2018, 16:36

What were the odds that Georgia's Secretary of State would pick shitty voting machines and software?
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 15236
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 27 Oct 2018, 18:45

Mo wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 16:31
That’s not user error, that’s bad product design.
Agree with Mo on this. I have had way too much experience with systems that are non-intuitive and cause grief to the user. Techies love gadgets and, because they know how they are supposed to work and the buttons one is supposed to push, get very dismissive when the non-initiates find the system confusing. Human factors engineering is the most neglected part of system design.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
Kolohe
Posts: 13696
Joined: 06 May 2010, 10:51

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Kolohe » 27 Oct 2018, 20:52

Aresen wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 11:11
thoreau wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 11:04
Regardless of the source of the malfunction, I've never understood what is wrong with simple paper ballots. Analog backup, lots of transparency, unhackable.
Paper ballots are fine when you are voting for one position (e.g. in a Westminister Style Parliamentary election), but when you are voting for many positions, they are a real pain in the ass. Your options are basically A) one ballot for each position, so people have to deal with a huge stack of paper
B) A single ballot for multiple positions, which means that either you process each ballot multiple times or you have to have someone transcribe the results onto a tally sheet, with all the error/fraud potential that entails.
We have a scanner that tallys the results.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 15236
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 27 Oct 2018, 21:10

Kolohe wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 20:52
Aresen wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 11:11
thoreau wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 11:04
Regardless of the source of the malfunction, I've never understood what is wrong with simple paper ballots. Analog backup, lots of transparency, unhackable.
Paper ballots are fine when you are voting for one position (e.g. in a Westminister Style Parliamentary election), but when you are voting for many positions, they are a real pain in the ass. Your options are basically A) one ballot for each position, so people have to deal with a huge stack of paper
B) A single ballot for multiple positions, which means that either you process each ballot multiple times or you have to have someone transcribe the results onto a tally sheet, with all the error/fraud potential that entails.
We have a scanner that tallys the results.
I know. thoreau also pointed it out above.

And I confess to being deliberately obtuse and ignoring scanners. Before scanners, the voting machines had levers which automatically reset when the voter left the voting booth. (There were stories then of fraudulently rigged machines as well. Before that, ballot boxes had ways of disappearing when the powers that be wished or magically contained more ballots than there were people (and dogs and cats) in the polling area. Some things never change.)

My point was that a count of a multi-vote paper ballot is considerably more difficult and fraught with problems than a single vote ballot.

I do remember elections where the counting continued well into the next day before the result was determined. (Illinois on the night of November 8, 1960 comes to mind - interestingly, another election decided by a margin of 100,000 votes.)
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
Ellie
Posts: 11838
Joined: 21 Apr 2010, 18:34

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Ellie » 27 Oct 2018, 21:15

My voting solution: bring back this guy!

Image
"NB stands for nota bene do not @ me" - nicole

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 27083
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 27 Oct 2018, 21:26

We definitely vote for too many offices. At the state level we don't need to be voting for comptroller and whatnot; just governor and legislators. At the county and city levels, just council members and mayors or county executives. I suppose school boards too, just to partition off that front of the culture war from electing the people who will make sure the potholes get fixed and whatnot. There's no reason to vote for the County Registrar of Deeds or whatever.

Ballot measures at all levels should be rare.

And judges, police chiefs, sheriffs, and prosecutors should NOT be elected. There should be at least one layer of officials standing between them and the masses. Yes, there are probably some instances where appointing them would have led to worse outcomes, but I think there are far more instances where we'd be better off with a layer of insulation.

But I concede that even my proposals won't get you to the simplicity afforded by voting for just one office on the election day. For that you need a parliamentary system with only one elected chamber and separate days for state/local elections.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 15236
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 27 Oct 2018, 21:58

Trump-Putin: US president invites Russia's leader to Washington

My only question: Will Putin drive a quadriga down Pennsylvania Avenue?
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
Kolohe
Posts: 13696
Joined: 06 May 2010, 10:51

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Kolohe » 28 Oct 2018, 10:56

We vote on too *few* offices, but ballot measures, bond referenda, and state constitutional amendments are a waste of time.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 27083
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 28 Oct 2018, 12:36

Kolohe wrote:
28 Oct 2018, 10:56
We vote on too *few* offices
Really? You think we should vote on who the County Registrar of Deeds is?
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
lunchstealer
Posts: 16530
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:25
Location: The Local Fluff in the Local Bubble

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by lunchstealer » 28 Oct 2018, 16:41

Kolohe wrote:
28 Oct 2018, 10:56
We vote on too *few* offices, but ballot measures, bond referenda, and state constitutional amendments are a waste of time.
About the only state ballot measure I ever enthusiastically voted for was Amendment 64, which legalized marijuana in CO. Otherwise, yeah I'm generally of the opinion that this shit should be left to legislators.
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"We can't confirm rumors that Lynndie England is in the running to be Gina Haspel's personal aide." - DAR

User avatar
Kolohe
Posts: 13696
Joined: 06 May 2010, 10:51

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Kolohe » 28 Oct 2018, 18:40

thoreau wrote:
28 Oct 2018, 12:36
Kolohe wrote:
28 Oct 2018, 10:56
We vote on too *few* offices
Really? You think we should vote on who the County Registrar of Deeds is?
I support un-unity of the executive at all levels, and de-unifying it where it exists.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 27083
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 28 Oct 2018, 19:50

I have no problem with executive departments having substantial autonomy from the executive (e.g. to prevent situations like firing the FBI Director who's investigating the President's ties to a foreign intelligence service), but the way to do that is through a mix of statutory rules, oversight processes that place a lot of prerogatives on Congress rather than the executive, and terms of office that carry over from one administration to the next. The demos is not qualified to decide who's actually good at carrying out most of these tasks. I mean, honestly, I have no idea who is qualified to be County Clerk or State Comptroller. The governor and state senate should hash out who will be the Comptroller, and maybe punt it to some commission that they appoint.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 15236
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 28 Oct 2018, 20:22

thoreau wrote:
28 Oct 2018, 19:50
I have no problem with executive departments having substantial autonomy from the executive (e.g. to prevent situations like firing the FBI Director who's investigating the President's ties to a foreign intelligence service),
I am really hoping that Trump fires Sessions on November 7th. Not only will we be rid of Sessions*, but the shitstorm will be epic.

*(Of course, Trump will probably nominate Ben Stein in his place.)
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

User avatar
Kolohe
Posts: 13696
Joined: 06 May 2010, 10:51

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Kolohe » 28 Oct 2018, 20:25

I think, T, you overestimate the competence of the replacement level Governor. Yeah, you got your Jerry Browns, even your Larry Hogans, but you also have your Sarah Palins and Blagos.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 27083
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 28 Oct 2018, 20:27

Aresen wrote:
28 Oct 2018, 20:22
I am really hoping that Trump fires Sessions on November 7th. Not only will we be rid of Sessions*, but the shitstorm will be epic.

*(Of course, Trump will probably nominate Ben Stein in his place.)
I have spent 17 years itching for a rematch with Ben Stein. Go ahead, put him in DC. Do it. I'll show up at DOJ headquarters and issue a challenge, and he'll have no choice but to come out and face me in a trivia battle.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

User avatar
Pham Nuwen
Posts: 7166
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 02:17

Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Pham Nuwen » 28 Oct 2018, 21:01

thoreau wrote:
28 Oct 2018, 20:27
Aresen wrote:
28 Oct 2018, 20:22
I am really hoping that Trump fires Sessions on November 7th. Not only will we be rid of Sessions*, but the shitstorm will be epic.

*(Of course, Trump will probably nominate Ben Stein in his place.)
I have spent 17 years itching for a rematch with Ben Stein. Go ahead, put him in DC. Do it. I'll show up at DOJ headquarters and issue a challenge, and he'll have no choice but to come out and face me in a trivia battle.
I thought you won his money. Am I misremembering that episode?
Goddamn libertarian message board. Hugh Akston

leave me to my mescaline smoothie in peace, please. dhex

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Jadagul and 10 guests