Putin on the Writs

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Painboy
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Painboy » 11 Sep 2018, 12:42

thoreau wrote:
10 Sep 2018, 20:29
I used to volunteer at the polls. I spent a lot of time trying to think about how a person could hack our system: paper ballots read by a scanner, results stored on a hard drive, then transmitted at the end of the day. With three separate data sources (the transmission at the end of the day, the hard drive, and the paper originals) it would be really hard for tampering to go undetected. Especially if the paper and hard drive are transported back to the elections office separately and with two sets of eyes on each of them the whole way.

That sort of system is cheap, transparent, and secure because of its redundancy and its reliance on the offline paper backup. States that aren't doing something like that are playing with fire.
This.

There are multiple reduncies in these systems, both electronic and analog.

I don't know if it's Hollywood or other media, but people have a greatly idealized view of what hacking is capable of. You can crack something and get information out of a source, and you can do things to break a system, but going into something changing things and leaving no trace is going to be almost impossible. Especially with something as fussed over as voting is.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Highway » 11 Sep 2018, 12:51

The problem is that a lot of systems don't have that redundancy. The system MD required statewide after 2000 was touch screen stand alone terminals with no other record. That was a huge step back from my county's optical scan paper ballots. MD finally went back to optical scan paper ballots for 2016. I imagine other states are still using electronic only standalone units.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 11 Sep 2018, 13:43

Highway wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 12:51
The problem is that a lot of systems don't have that redundancy. The system MD required statewide after 2000 was touch screen stand alone terminals with no other record. That was a huge step back from my county's optical scan paper ballots. MD finally went back to optical scan paper ballots for 2016. I imagine other states are still using electronic only standalone units.
The state is dictating the technology? That's not a good idea in and of itself. Having every county, village, and hamlet making their own choice makes it that much harder to affect the outcome of anything bigger than the school board.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 11 Sep 2018, 13:58

States should set minimum performance standards, but not specify the tech and vendor. I'd be fine with a state law that says "You need at least three layers of redundancy, and at least one of them must be analog and off-line. But you pick your vendor."
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 11 Sep 2018, 14:10

I would like 'Anonymous' or some other hacking group to go after one machine in one precinct that was heavily (75%+) for either Team Blue or Team Red and flip it the other way, so that the hack was obvious. Preferably in a state that is 'safe' for one party or the other, so that the result would not affect the outcome. This would be especially good if the state was one without a hard copy or other backup.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Painboy » 11 Sep 2018, 14:30

Highway wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 12:51
The problem is that a lot of systems don't have that redundancy. The system MD required statewide after 2000 was touch screen stand alone terminals with no other record. That was a huge step back from my county's optical scan paper ballots. MD finally went back to optical scan paper ballots for 2016. I imagine other states are still using electronic only standalone units.
But how hackable is it? Again you might be able to break it or extract the info on it but changing it such that the results are substantially altered and while leaving no trace of tampering isn't a realistic scenario. This doesn't even get into the issue of the hack being detected by statistical abnormalities that would likely be apparent with the exit polling. To remain undetected you would have to spread this over an immense number of machines. I don't see how any of this would be remotely practical.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 11 Sep 2018, 15:08

Maybe you're right; maybe it isn't hackable. BUt the whole point of redundancy is so that you don't have to find out in the hardest way possible that your one and only layer was more hackable than you thought.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 11 Sep 2018, 15:13

How easy would it be if you stopped caring about whether you left a trace or not?

Because the enemy does't care. Everything they are doing is basically out in the open. If the biggest barrier is that they'll get caught, then they're four presidential tweets away from it becoming "The Dems just want to steal the election Durr Durr"...

EDIT: Or, even more realistic, the vote totals are fudged and the Democrats demand a recount. To whom will they need to direct that demand, Trump's FEC? Good luck with that, comrade...


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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Painboy » 11 Sep 2018, 16:39

Taktix® wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 15:13
How easy would it be if you stopped caring about whether you left a trace or not?

Because the enemy does't care. Everything they are doing is basically out in the open. If the biggest barrier is that they'll get caught, then they're four presidential tweets away from it becoming "The Dems just want to steal the election Durr Durr"...

EDIT: Or, even more realistic, the vote totals are fudged and the Democrats demand a recount. To whom will they need to direct that demand, Trump's FEC? Good luck with that, comrade...
If they're caught it would just invalidate the election and everyone would vote again with whatever vulnerability that had been exploited removed. It would be annoying, and there would be a tedious amount teeth gnashing but not much beyond that. Trump has no control of the state election systems. His opinion wouldn't mean shit.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 11 Sep 2018, 17:02

I must be overlooking or misunderstanding something, because it sounds like the evidence for your "all is wellism" boils down to "Yeah, well, all that evidence y'all l have showing the extreme insecurity of our voting systems? It isn't THAT bad, probably. And if it is, surely we could fix it if we really wanted to."
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Painboy » 11 Sep 2018, 17:10

Jennifer wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 17:02
I must be overlooking or misunderstanding something, because it sounds like the evidence for your "all is wellism" boils down to "Yeah, well, all that evidence y'all l have showing the extreme insecurity of our voting systems? It isn't THAT bad, probably. And if it is, surely we could fix it if we really wanted to."
You are the one making extrodinary claims here. That requires extrodinary evidence. None of which has been provided. Just a bunch of wild speculation based on vague information.

If you want to live in fear of every silly theory that's on you. I'm just trying to let you know you don't have to.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 11 Sep 2018, 17:27

There's no way that people would do stupid, irresponsible, short-sighted things that have big negative consequences. I know that because in an efficient market that would create an opportunity that somebody would promptly take advantage of and then it would be fixed.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 11 Sep 2018, 17:30

Painboy wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 17:10
Jennifer wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 17:02
I must be overlooking or misunderstanding something, because it sounds like the evidence for your "all is wellism" boils down to "Yeah, well, all that evidence y'all l have showing the extreme insecurity of our voting systems? It isn't THAT bad, probably. And if it is, surely we could fix it if we really wanted to."
You are the one making extrodinary claims here. That requires extrodinary evidence. None of which has been provided. Just a bunch of wild speculation based on vague information.

If you want to live in fear of every silly theory that's on you. I'm just trying to let you know you don't have to.
Who are you talking to?
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 11 Sep 2018, 17:31

thoreau wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 17:27
There's no way that people would do stupid, irresponsible, short-sighted things that have big negative consequences. I know that because in an efficient market that would create an opportunity that somebody would promptly take advantage of and then it would be fixed.
This is the dumb version of this argument, which is better put as something like "people claim their pet thing is the biggest danger in the world probably a billion times more frequently than it is a big danger." It's possible it's all a house of cards but people just keep saying that all the time about everything.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 11 Sep 2018, 17:49

In normal times, most things that people are worried about won't happen on the scale that they fear. Trump and the political circumstances surrounding him are not normal. Members of his family and campaign met with Russian government representatives who offered dirt, then released the fruits of hacking. Government officials have been nonchalant about improving the security of election systems even though there are reports of vulnerabilities to hacking. There is, at a minimum, gross negligence in an area where partisan incentives are obvious. This is not a normal circumstance. This is not a circumstance where normal, rational actions by people doing what they do are likely to mitigate the problem, because the incentives will push rational people toward selective indifference.

By way of analogy, I used to work in a building that had a problem with fire alarms going off. I got somewhat lackadaisical about evacuating. But I still went out into the hallway to check if anyone was yelling "Look! Smoke!" before deciding whether to move quickly or slowly. I had to actually look and make sure that I was dealing with a normal situation.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 11 Sep 2018, 17:56

We have a President who can't bring himself to denounce Nazis and Klansmen, and a substantial part of the public doesn't care. We have a President whose campaign was stuffed with people who could never in a million years get security clearances if they weren't so close to the President, and a substantial part of the public doesn't care.

We are way past normal times. This time there is, in fact, a wolf out there.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 11 Sep 2018, 18:02

thoreau wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 17:56
We have a President who can't bring himself to denounce Nazis and Klansmen, and a substantial part of the public doesn't care.
Nor should they. White supremacy in America is at its all time weakest.
We have a President whose campaign was stuffed with people who could never in a million years get security clearances if they weren't so close to the President, and a substantial part of the public doesn't care.

We are way past normal times. This time there is, in fact, a wolf out there.
It's not a wolf. It's a lap dog that won't stop yapping.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 11 Sep 2018, 18:20

Painboy wrote:
Jennifer wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 17:02
I must be overlooking or misunderstanding something, because it sounds like the evidence for your "all is wellism" boils down to "Yeah, well, all that evidence y'all l have showing the extreme insecurity of our voting systems? It isn't THAT bad, probably. And if it is, surely we could fix it if we really wanted to."
You are the one making extrodinary claims here. That requires extrodinary evidence. None of which has been provided. Just a bunch of wild speculation based on vague information.

If you want to live in fear of every silly theory that's on you. I'm just trying to let you know you don't have to.
I fail to see how news reports of actual events and statements from sitting senators and actual events in congress that are public record are now considered "wild speculation"?
Painboy wrote:
Taktix[emoji2400 wrote:[quote=Taktix post_id=426378 time=1536693233 user_id=100]
How easy would it be if you stopped caring about whether you left a trace or not?

Because the enemy does't care. Everything they are doing is basically out in the open. If the biggest barrier is that they'll get caught, then they're four presidential tweets away from it becoming "The Dems just want to steal the election Durr Durr"...

EDIT: Or, even more realistic, the vote totals are fudged and the Democrats demand a recount. To whom will they need to direct that demand, Trump's FEC? Good luck with that, comrade...
If they're caught it would just invalidate the election and everyone would vote again with whatever vulnerability that had been exploited removed. It would be annoying, and there would be a tedious amount teeth gnashing but not much beyond that. Trump has no control of the state election systems. His opinion wouldn't mean shit.
And then unicorns will fly out of Beto O'Rourke's ass and set to fixing all the bad things that Trump did?

Seriously? If there were a fudged election that keeps the GOP in the majority, by whom will it be challeneged? The current GOP majority?

All the MAGA mouthbreathers, who put up with the daily horrors over the last two years, are suddenly going to say "election fraud? That's a line too far, even for Trump."



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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 11 Sep 2018, 18:28


Warren wrote:
thoreau wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 17:56
We have a President who can't bring himself to denounce Nazis and Klansmen, and a substantial part of the public doesn't care.
Nor should they. White supremacy in America is at its all time weakest.
That doesn't jive with facts. Care to offer any proof to that assertion? Or are you saying what we're seeing and hearing is not true?
Warren wrote:
We have a President whose campaign was stuffed with people who could never in a million years get security clearances if they weren't so close to the President, and a substantial part of the public doesn't care.

We are way past normal times. This time there is, in fact, a wolf out there.
It's not a wolf. It's a lap dog that won't stop yapping.
A lap dog sitting on the lap of a wolf, who is more commonly represented by a bear. This is why this a problem, and why this time it's different...

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 11 Sep 2018, 18:44

I do think you are seeing 1 part emboldened pitiful racist minority and 5 parts EVERYTHING IS WHITE SUPREMACY CALL OUT CALL OUT

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Kwix » 11 Sep 2018, 18:47

JasonL wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 18:44
I do think you are seeing 1 part emboldened pitiful racist minority and 5 parts EVERYTHING IS WHITE SUPREMACY CALL OUT CALL OUT
Non-scientific but this is my sense as well. Racist assholes were racist before Trump but they feel a little less in the closet now. I doubt that successful racist conversion has increased since 2016 but the call out culture sure as hell has.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Eric the .5b » 11 Sep 2018, 18:56

It's pretty weak on a historical scale starting in 1776, sure.

Compared to, say, 2012? Not at its weakest, no.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 11 Sep 2018, 18:57

I don't think most Americans are white supremacists (except maybe if we define the word as Ta-Nehisi Coates, does, in which case I'm pretty sure even Al Sharpton is a white supremacist). I do think that people are complacent about Trump and letting him cross lines that people were unable to cross for several decades.
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Jennifer
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 11 Sep 2018, 19:12

Painboy wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 17:10
Jennifer wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 17:02
I must be overlooking or misunderstanding something, because it sounds like the evidence for your "all is wellism" boils down to "Yeah, well, all that evidence y'all l have showing the extreme insecurity of our voting systems? It isn't THAT bad, probably. And if it is, surely we could fix it if we really wanted to."
You are the one making extrodinary claims here. That requires extrodinary evidence. None of which has been provided. Just a bunch of wild speculation based on vague information.

If you want to live in fear of every silly theory that's on you. I'm just trying to let you know you don't have to.
The news articles Taktix and I provided as evidence for our concerns are not "silly theories." So I'll ask more explicitly: have you any actual evidence for your "all is well" assertions? (Difficulty: snide suggestions that Taktix and I are suffering from unjustified anxiety do not comprise "evidence.")
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Ellie » 11 Sep 2018, 19:15

I think (timely hot take here) racism against Middle Eastern and Muslim people definitely got worse after 9/11/2001. Other than that, team JasonL/Kwix.
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