Putin on the Writs

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JasonL
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 08 Oct 2019, 15:53

No, it means he, and tens of millions of voters wanted to do it and it had nothing to do with russia. Is everyone who likes tariffs taking orders from Putin just because Putin benefits from some but by no means all of the trade disruption? Because, that would be a stupid thing to believe.

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Taktix®
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 08 Oct 2019, 16:04

JasonL wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 15:53
No, it means he, and tens of millions of voters wanted to do it and it had nothing to do with russia. Is everyone who likes tariffs taking orders from Putin just because Putin benefits from some but by no means all of the trade disruption? Because, that would be a stupid thing to believe.
That's preposterous logic. There wasn't some huge pre-2016 groundswell for tariffs as a salve to our economic woes, just looking for the right candidate to deliver.

More likely, hundreds of millions of voters want things, and Trump was able to con tens of millions of those voters that tariffs were the best way to get said things. Despite his lengthy list of faults, Trump is above all one hell of a salesman/conman whose entire life has been an exercise in the durability of well laid bullshit.

Tens of millions didn't vote for tariffs, they voted for Trump. That's like saying the pretenses for Iraq War II were all on the up-and-up because Dubya was re-elected with 60 million votes. Lots of people can be wrong about something and not be "in" on the real motives...
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JasonL
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 08 Oct 2019, 16:09

Obviously there was a groundswell. I mean, what world do you live in? There was a dramatic global populist movement to retreat from global markets. Bernie was also a protect the worker with tariffs guy. Le Pen's movement in france same thing. Britain same thing. A half dozen other european countries had significant populist movements that either won or almost won majority control in their governments. You honestly think Putin set that all up? Populism wasn't invented by Russia taxtix and populism ALWAYS involves protectionism.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 08 Oct 2019, 16:22

JasonL wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 16:09
Obviously there was a groundswell. I mean, what world do you live in? There was a dramatic global populist movement to retreat from global markets. Bernie was also a protect the worker with tariffs guy. Le Pen's movement in france same thing. Britain same thing. A half dozen other european countries had significant populist movements that either won or almost won majority control in their governments. You honestly think Putin set that all up? Populism wasn't invented by Russia taxtix and populism ALWAYS involves protectionism.
Thank you for continuing to prove my point.

I don't know about Bernie*, but Le Pen, Brexit, and most of the other populist movements across Europe all involve working with the same people, namely Steve Bannon and the Cambridge Analytica folks:
While the UK Parliament has already conducted hearings with Facebook and Cambridge Analytica about possible interference with the Brexit referendum, clearly this is a matter of broader European interest. Europe already has great cause to be alarmed by Russian interference in European politics and our information ecosystems more generally. Steve Bannon, who worked with Chris Wylie to set up Cambridge Analytica and went on to be Donald Trump’s chief of staff, has now set his sights directly on continental Europe, cosying up to all sorts of nationalist and Christian-right wing movements in an attempt to perpetuate his alt - right culture war, from Marianne Le Pen to Orbán, the Polish PiS government party, the German Alternative für Deutschland, the Dutch Christian Union, or indeed Nigel Farage.
I would love to go into what I think some of the causes are for the rising nationalist tide over the past decade, but it would be unfair of me to press forward without giving you a chance, to, oh, I don't know, cite some facts of your own for the supposed organic groundswell of support for tariffs that you claim is so obvious...

*(I'm not quite ready to claim Bernie was "in" on it, but others have claimed he solicited help from Russia and we do know for certain that Russian bots spread pro-Bernie, anti-Hillary memes during the 2016 primary EDIT: Nevermind, Bernie himself acknowledges Russian bots helped him in 2016: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 348051002/)...
Last edited by Taktix® on 08 Oct 2019, 18:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 08 Oct 2019, 16:32

Supposed groundswell. Ahahahaa! Oh my god you actually think Russia invented modern populism for the entire globe. Hundreds of millions of people wanting protection from global markets are only explainable by a puppet master. JFC Dan Brown would reject this plot as implausible. You aren't citing facts that prove your point, you are citing facts like "trump supports tariffs" which are not under dispute. The causal link is entirely unsupported by anything other than "russia benefits from X".

Who was responsible for William Jennings Bryan? The pope? The jews? Bilderbergs? Rasputin? The world must know.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 08 Oct 2019, 16:39

Let's try this, what evidence would you find compelling that your hypothesis is stupid? The real world doesn't have unitary causes for global populism, so there will be no "here's the one cause instead of Putin". The timeline doesn't seem to phase you - like CA was not a thing when these populist movements got off the ground but oh well it's evidence somehow anyway. Plausibility doesn't seem to be a concern - like how do hundreds of millions of people get duped all at the same time just because this guy says so even though they were perfectly happy with globalism before. The presence of Sanders and left populism proposing similar global disengagement and tariffs don't seem to be compelling. The variety of flavors on the global stage don't seem to bother you. You will just google until you find anything at all that allows you to draw another arrow of connection and call it evidence.

You have a very dramatic claim - what would it take to falsify it?

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 08 Oct 2019, 16:39

JasonL wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 16:32
Supposed groundswell. Ahahahaa! Oh my god you actually think Russia invented modern populism for the entire globe. Hundreds of millions of people wanting protection from global markets are only explainable by a puppet master. JFC Dan Brown would reject this plot as implausible. You aren't citing facts that prove your point, you are citing facts like "trump supports tariffs" which are not under dispute. The causal link is entirely unsupported by anything other than "russia benefits from X".

Who was responsible for William Jennings Bryan? The pope? The jews? Bilderbergs? Rasputin? The world must know.
When you're done stuffing that strawman with crazy, you're welcome to present a more substantive argument...
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 08 Oct 2019, 16:46

JasonL wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 16:39
You have a very dramatic claim - what would it take to falsify it?
Something more fact-based than "obviously you're wrong and also crazy."
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 08 Oct 2019, 16:53

Also, just to be clear, I'm not trying to claim populism didn't exist before Putin's global assault (as the words you are trying to put in my mouth claim), just that Putin found a way to empower populism for his own designs...

(As if the Russians never weaponized an ideology before)
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 09 Oct 2019, 00:33

Aaaaaaand now Russia moves in and claims her prize. What another completely coincidentally lucky week for that most fortunate of dictators!

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 10 Oct 2019, 17:20

Ok this definitely doesn’t take any leap to suspect Russian intel involvement. Graham takes a call from Russian pranksters (with suspected lols to Russian intel) that make him think he’s talking to the Turkish Defense Minister in August. I’m said conversation he says he’ll help with the “Kurdish problem”. And the tapes are released right after he gets on his high horse about abandoning the Kurds.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/1 ... all-043991
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 10 Oct 2019, 18:51

I wonder how the usual deniers will spin the two Russian bagmen busted trying to flee the country. Probably Trump too stupid to collude again something something...
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Painboy » 10 Oct 2019, 21:20

Taktix® wrote:
10 Oct 2019, 18:51
I wonder how the usual deniers will spin the two Russian bagmen busted trying to flee the country. Probably Trump too stupid to collude again something something...
You do know Ukraine isn't in Russia right?

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 11 Oct 2019, 01:37

All I’ve seen is that they’re Soviet born without a city mentioned, so it’s unclear if they’re Russian or Ukrainian.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 11 Oct 2019, 09:37

Painboy wrote:
10 Oct 2019, 21:20
Taktix® wrote:
10 Oct 2019, 18:51
I wonder how the usual deniers will spin the two Russian bagmen busted trying to flee the country. Probably Trump too stupid to collude again something something...
You do know Ukraine isn't in Russia right?
At least for now...
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Painboy » 11 Oct 2019, 10:56

Taktix® wrote:
11 Oct 2019, 09:37
Painboy wrote:
10 Oct 2019, 21:20
Taktix® wrote:
10 Oct 2019, 18:51
I wonder how the usual deniers will spin the two Russian bagmen busted trying to flee the country. Probably Trump too stupid to collude again something something...
You do know Ukraine isn't in Russia right?
At least for now...
Touche. :)

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JasonL
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by JasonL » 11 Oct 2019, 11:06

Everywhere is almost Russia as soon as the great mind control network has everyone writing in Putin in all elections forever everywhere in the world bwahaha, BEAHAHAHAAA

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Dangerman » 11 Oct 2019, 12:27

"the usual deniers" is a pretty uncharitable way to describe "people who disagree with me".

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 11 Oct 2019, 12:47

Painboy wrote:
11 Oct 2019, 10:56
Taktix® wrote:
11 Oct 2019, 09:37
Painboy wrote:
10 Oct 2019, 21:20
Taktix® wrote:
10 Oct 2019, 18:51
I wonder how the usual deniers will spin the two Russian bagmen busted trying to flee the country. Probably Trump too stupid to collude again something something...
You do know Ukraine isn't in Russia right?
At least for now...
Touche. :)
I mean, it depends really. If they were born in Crimea, they became Russian in 2014. If they were born in the eastern Donbass region, they became Russian this week when President (Monica) Zelensky surrendered in no small part because he was being blackmailed by Putin's guy, President Trump.

But yes, technically they're only Soviet-born Ukrainians working for Ukrainian gas magnate and Putin cronie Dmitry Firtash, who was a major player in the 2016 election attack.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 11 Oct 2019, 13:14

Dangerman wrote:
11 Oct 2019, 12:27
"the usual deniers" is a pretty uncharitable way to describe "people who disagree with me".
I admit it is a bit untoward, but it's not unfounded like, say, an accusation of mental illness for disagreeing. And when one spends the bulk of this thread trying to warn those who one thought were friends about what one believes (with significant factual basis) to be an existential threat one's country that one loves, only to be met by scorn and derision, well, perhaps one might be excused from the use of such mildly corrosive language, no?
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 11 Oct 2019, 13:23

JasonL wrote:
11 Oct 2019, 11:06
Everywhere is almost Russia as soon as the great mind control network has everyone writing in Putin in all elections forever everywhere in the world bwahaha, BEAHAHAHAAA
Seriously? Are you saying the current troubles with Ukraine are unrelated to Putin/The Russian Federation?

Because I would positively love to hear how you came to that conclusion...
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Dangerman » 11 Oct 2019, 13:43

Taktix® wrote:
11 Oct 2019, 13:14
Dangerman wrote:
11 Oct 2019, 12:27
"the usual deniers" is a pretty uncharitable way to describe "people who disagree with me".
I admit it is a bit untoward, but it's not unfounded like, say, an accusation of mental illness for disagreeing. And when one spends the bulk of this thread trying to warn those who one thought were friends about what one believes (with significant factual basis) to be an existential threat one's country that one loves, only to be met by scorn and derision, well, perhaps one might be excused from the use of such mildly corrosive language, no?
No. And if you are rethinking whether or not we acting as your friends because we disagree about this, that is troubling. Maybe also consider that you could be wrong?

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 11 Oct 2019, 15:22

Taktix® wrote:
11 Oct 2019, 13:14
with significant factual basis
Oh dear god no. Please seek help.
Last edited by Warren on 11 Oct 2019, 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Dangerman » 11 Oct 2019, 17:21

You Warren'd up that quote pretty good big guy.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Ellie » 11 Oct 2019, 17:34

Maybe when he says "the usual deniers" he means the usual densities of fabric?
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