Putin on the Writs

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Jennifer
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 11 Sep 2018, 19:24

Racists got a lot more actual no-joke political authority under President Trump, too. When you have an open unapologetic bigot like Stephen Miller helping decide what our immigration policy is to be ... yikes. Or this new thing wherein Latino citizens are being denied passports because Trump's government doesn't believe they're really citizens.

Nonetheless, I look forward to hearing the principled and well-thought-out libertarian reasons why only people with mental problems will find any of this problematic.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 11 Sep 2018, 19:26

Eric the .5b wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 18:56
It's pretty weak on a historical scale starting in 1776, sure.

Compared to, say, 2012? Not at its weakest, no.
Maybe if 2012 was some kind of outlier year. By 2015 Dylann Roof felt he could spark a white uprising. There were also a series of church burnings that year.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 11 Sep 2018, 19:33

I think that the median American is decent on these issues, not interested in going backwards, and (sadly) not in the driver's seat right now. I do NOT think that the median American is more racist than ever. I do NOT think that the median American supports what's happening. I do think that policy is currently hostage to the most partisan of the Republican primary voters (probably 20% of the public) and that's why Trump is getting away with things.

I actually share Jason's and Painboy's optimism about the median American. And in times of normal politics the median American is what matters. This is not a time of normal politics.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 11 Sep 2018, 19:38

Ellie wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 19:15
I think (timely hot take here) racism against Middle Eastern and Muslim people definitely got worse after 9/11/2001. Other than that, team JasonL/Kwix.
I can't see any objective benchmarks to tell one way or another. Certainly from where I'm standing I see a whole lot of SJW defense of Muslims. The same crowd celebrating the culture of the Muslim world and simultaneously condemning western culture for being racist and sexist grinds my teeth.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 11 Sep 2018, 19:44

Jennifer wrote:
Painboy wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 17:10
Jennifer wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 17:02
I must be overlooking or misunderstanding something, because it sounds like the evidence for your "all is wellism" boils down to "Yeah, well, all that evidence y'all l have showing the extreme insecurity of our voting systems? It isn't THAT bad, probably. And if it is, surely we could fix it if we really wanted to."
You are the one making extrodinary claims here. That requires extrodinary evidence. None of which has been provided. Just a bunch of wild speculation based on vague information.

If you want to live in fear of every silly theory that's on you. I'm just trying to let you know you don't have to.
The news articles Taktix and I provided as evidence for our concerns are not "silly theories." So I'll ask more explicitly: have you any actual evidence for your "all is well" assertions? (Difficulty: snide suggestions that Taktix and I are suffering from unjustified anxiety do not comprise "evidence.")
Fine. Please let me know I have nothing to be concerned about, but please use the language of facts rather than weak argumentation like "you're nuts".

Seriously! Do you think I want to be afraid that we're already too far down the path to a banana republic that it might already be too late to turn back?

I want to believe it can never happen here, but that has been the clasic fatal error of the already-doomed. I want to believe there's enough people out there who still believe in representative government enough to take to the streets if something fishy happens in November. Do you really believe that? In a country where we regularly have less than half the electorate turn out to vote under normal circumstances?

Do you think I want the Democrats in power? Whichever way Trump ends up leaving power, that pendulum is going to swing so fucking hard towards socialism (if it ever swings again) and we'll have Trump's extremism to thank for it.

I don't want these things, but if we keep on pretending like nothing's wrong, that's what's going to happen...

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Painboy » 11 Sep 2018, 22:53

So let's go over some of what you posted here.
Taktix® wrote:
10 Sep 2018, 18:05

Maryland voting machines are serviced by a company owned by a Russian oligarch: https://www.google.com/amp/www.baltimor ... y,amp.html
The operative word here is "ties." They never explain what that actually means. He clearly doesn't own it otherwise they would have said that, so I can only assume he just has some stake in the company. That's not going to give him free access to whatever is on the servers. I don't think the rest of the stakeholders would just let that happen (and not tell anyone in the process).

The rest of the article is politicians pumping up the threat to use as a cudgel against their enemies. Business as usual.
Taktix® wrote:
10 Sep 2018, 18:05
A sitting U.S. Senator has stated they are already in our voting rolls and machines: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/electi ... ns-n901701
Who of course has no way to back up what he said since it was all "classified."

The incident they referenced at the end is light on info and was evidently unsuccessful (it's only successful if it doesn't leave a trace).
Taktix® wrote:
10 Sep 2018, 18:05
Oh, and let's not forget that the entire intellengence community agrees that Russians probed and in some cases infiltrated election systems in 2016, which, by my count, was the very last election we had.
And were unsuccessful and now has everyone on the lookout for it making any further attempts even more difficult.
Taktix® wrote:
10 Sep 2018, 18:05
Or that this is the exact method already employed in Russia's 2012 "election" and the elections of pro-Russian puppets in Georgia and Urkrain.
Both those countries were former Soviet states and they used payed off politicians and Russian militants to suppress voting. That's going to be kind of hard to do in the US.
Taktix® wrote:
10 Sep 2018, 18:05
Or that Republicans in the House: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... story.html and the Senate: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 884438002/
blocked funding for additional election security.
That's all just political theater. There's no amount the Republicans could propose for that that the Democrats would say is okay.

Here is an article from the Economist (sorry if it's paywalled).
https://www.economist.com/united-states ... rd-to-hack

Relevant bit:
The second, more insidious, method is to complement that tactic with a more direct cyber-attack on voting records or machines. Fortunately, the spectre of hackers in Moscow doctoring actual election results appears remote. Just before leaving the White House, Barack Obama designated election systems as critical infrastructure. That decision granted election officials access to federal cyber-security experts and to an information-sharing network. The federal government has since provided billions of dollars for securing the administration of elections.

All voting machines are supposed to be “air-gapped” (not connected to the internet), making them much harder to infiltrate from afar. Attackers could try to alter voting results by loading malware onto USB sticks that get plugged into the machines, or embedding it in the code run on them (the government’s own hackers used this technique to sabotage Iran’s air-gapped nuclear centrifuges). But even if Russia did manage to sneak a virus onto some of these machines, it would need to remain hidden during routine logic and accuracy tests, conducted before the election, which ensure that the devices’ tabulated totals equal the sum of the individual votes entered on them. Rigorous reviews of software and vote tabulations have revealed no evidence of any electronic ballot-stuffing, deleting or switching in 2016.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 12 Sep 2018, 00:31

Vladimir Potanin is absolutely a Putin guy, per the Treasury Department: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/30/poli ... index.html

More info Re: Florida: https://theintercept.com/2018/07/13/a-s ... otherwise/
Also, to be fair, Rubio (Rubio?) is trying to get clearances for state election officials: https://www.tampabay.com/florida-politi ... ack-claim/

And again, I disagree with the idea "it's only successful if it doesn't leave a trace". This became obsolete. They don't give AF about getting caught. They're doing whatever they want, in public, and just denying it over and over until it becomes passé.

Fuck, it was spelled Ukraine. Sorry, trying to thumb type when not having permission to use a phone leads to some duhh...

But, sure, Ukraine and Georgia were easier targets, but they were also successful operations to build upon, and they have Republicans who are loyal (and potentially compromised, don't think they weren't spearfishin' at the RNC either) like Nunes and Jeffords and Rohrabacher may not actively suppress voting but at least look the other way if irregularities are reported, and don't discount any republican to pee theyselves in the face of Trump.

I will admit though that the Economist article is reassuring. I hope you're right...
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Aresen » 12 Sep 2018, 00:59

Taktix® wrote:
12 Sep 2018, 00:31
I will admit though that the Economist article is reassuring. I hope you're right...
Just trying to put your fears to rest, tovarisch.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 12 Sep 2018, 01:03

Aresen wrote:
12 Sep 2018, 00:59
Taktix® wrote:
12 Sep 2018, 00:31
I will admit though that the Economist article is reassuring. I hope you're right...
Just trying to put your fears to rest, tovarisch.
Dude, if we end up in the same camp I am sooo getting you with that thing where you get someone to look at an "ok" hand gesture...
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 12 Sep 2018, 01:37

Also, WTF: https://nypost.com/2018/09/11/russia-re ... s-in-cuba/

We're at war and we don't even know it...
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by lunchstealer » 14 Sep 2018, 14:34

Eric the .5b wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 18:56
It's pretty weak on a historical scale starting in 1776, sure.

Compared to, say, 2012? Not at its weakest, no.
I suspect it was at its weakest on Sept 11 '01 at 7 in the morning. There was a local minimum in '06 to maybe '08, and a slow ramp up since then, and a spike in invigoration in aught-15.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 14 Sep 2018, 14:35

lunchstealer wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 14:34
Eric the .5b wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 18:56
It's pretty weak on a historical scale starting in 1776, sure.

Compared to, say, 2012? Not at its weakest, no.
I suspect it was at its weakest on Sept 11 '01 at 7 in the morning. There was a local minimum in '06 to maybe '08, and a slow ramp up since then, and a spike in invigoration in aught-15.
No ramp up, no spike.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by lunchstealer » 14 Sep 2018, 16:21

Warren wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 14:35
lunchstealer wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 14:34
Eric the .5b wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 18:56
It's pretty weak on a historical scale starting in 1776, sure.

Compared to, say, 2012? Not at its weakest, no.
I suspect it was at its weakest on Sept 11 '01 at 7 in the morning. There was a local minimum in '06 to maybe '08, and a slow ramp up since then, and a spike in invigoration in aught-15.
No ramp up, no spike.
You're talking about something different than I'm talking about, then. The movers and shakers in the white supremacy game aren't just lurking on Stormfront anymore, and in '08 the Crying Nazi was an unremarkable Libertarian in the Free State movement. Breitbart was still just a mainstream conservative website, revolutionizing the web presence of the kulturkampf, but otherwise not particularly noteworthy. DONDERRROOOOO was just becoming Merka Libertarian 'Publikun guy but wasn't trying to convince actual white supremacists to let Jews be white so they can all get together to hate on blacks and latinos and muslims yet. AR was wacky but not going on about white genocide. I mean, there are people who are legit moving from mainstream-ish positions to open white nationalism/pride/power/supremacy. The only other time I saw that happening was after 9/11 and then it was focused entirely on Muslims.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 14 Sep 2018, 16:48

lunchstealer wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 16:21
Warren wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 14:35
lunchstealer wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 14:34
Eric the .5b wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 18:56
It's pretty weak on a historical scale starting in 1776, sure.

Compared to, say, 2012? Not at its weakest, no.
I suspect it was at its weakest on Sept 11 '01 at 7 in the morning. There was a local minimum in '06 to maybe '08, and a slow ramp up since then, and a spike in invigoration in aught-15.
No ramp up, no spike.
You're talking about something different than I'm talking about, then. The movers and shakers in the white supremacy game aren't just lurking on Stormfront anymore, and in '08 the Crying Nazi was an unremarkable Libertarian in the Free State movement. Breitbart was still just a mainstream conservative website, revolutionizing the web presence of the kulturkampf, but otherwise not particularly noteworthy. DONDERRROOOOO was just becoming Merka Libertarian 'Publikun guy but wasn't trying to convince actual white supremacists to let Jews be white so they can all get together to hate on blacks and latinos and muslims yet. AR was wacky but not going on about white genocide. I mean, there are people who are legit moving from mainstream-ish positions to open white nationalism/pride/power/supremacy. The only other time I saw that happening was after 9/11 and then it was focused entirely on Muslims.
Plus, various elected Republicans have thrown away their racist dog whistles and replaced them with amplified sousaphones: Steve King tweeting openly white supremacist memes and videos, Dana Rohrabacher palling around with Holocaust deniers such as Chuck Johnson, more "the party of Lincoln should also be the party of Confederate apologias"-types than I can count off the top of my head....
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Warren » 14 Sep 2018, 17:39

lunchstealer wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 16:21
Warren wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 14:35
lunchstealer wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 14:34
Eric the .5b wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 18:56
It's pretty weak on a historical scale starting in 1776, sure.

Compared to, say, 2012? Not at its weakest, no.
I suspect it was at its weakest on Sept 11 '01 at 7 in the morning. There was a local minimum in '06 to maybe '08, and a slow ramp up since then, and a spike in invigoration in aught-15.
No ramp up, no spike.
You're talking about something different than I'm talking about, then. The movers and shakers in the white supremacy game aren't just lurking on Stormfront anymore, and in '08 the Crying Nazi was an unremarkable Libertarian in the Free State movement. Breitbart was still just a mainstream conservative website, revolutionizing the web presence of the kulturkampf, but otherwise not particularly noteworthy. DONDERRROOOOO was just becoming Merka Libertarian 'Publikun guy but wasn't trying to convince actual white supremacists to let Jews be white so they can all get together to hate on blacks and latinos and muslims yet. AR was wacky but not going on about white genocide. I mean, there are people who are legit moving from mainstream-ish positions to open white nationalism/pride/power/supremacy. The only other time I saw that happening was after 9/11 and then it was focused entirely on Muslims.
Yeah I'm talking about active members in WS groups. Racism on social media has spiked. But that's a feature of social media. It amplifies the most radical voices.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 14 Sep 2018, 17:44

Warren wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 17:39
Yeah I'm talking about active members in WS groups. Racism on social media has spiked. But that's a feature of social media. It amplifies the most radical voices.
And many of those radical voices are now elected or appointed government officials.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Mo » 15 Sep 2018, 19:54

Warren wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 19:38
Ellie wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 19:15
I think (timely hot take here) racism against Middle Eastern and Muslim people definitely got worse after 9/11/2001. Other than that, team JasonL/Kwix.
I can't see any objective benchmarks to tell one way or another. Certainly from where I'm standing I see a whole lot of SJW defense of Muslims. The same crowd celebrating the culture of the Muslim world and simultaneously condemning western culture for being racist and sexist grinds my teeth.
I've personally observed worse racism post-911 than pre (and not just from agents of the government). That is despite the fact that most of my time pre-911 was in high school and college and therefore with people that are horrible by default (high school students, college students and Bostonians) rather than more mature adults.
JasonL wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 18:44
I do think you are seeing 1 part emboldened pitiful racist minority and 5 parts EVERYTHING IS WHITE SUPREMACY CALL OUT CALL OUT
I think the fact that it is less shameful to say the quiet parts loud makes it more prevalent. Prior to the rise of Trump (and Obama's election), most people with racist thoughts at least knew well enough to be ashamed of it. That psychological "it's wrong" feeling makes it less likely to spread/strengthen. If it's less shameful, it gets more prevalent.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 15 Sep 2018, 20:16

As much as I despise Bush Jr., I give him credit for keeping the racists from going completely hog wild. I think some of it was conscious, deliberate messaging on his part (e.g. "religion of peace"), telling them that racist shit is not OK with him. Another part of it is that they probably felt like there's no need to let it all hang out because a white Christian conservative with a Texas twang is in charge so it's going to be OK.

Then a black guy with a Muslim name comes in and they feel like it's all out of control. And then Trump comes along and says "Yep, it all went to hell, it's all been terrible, and I'm here to fix it and show them!" So the racists have official sanction from The Leader.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Taktix® » 19 Sep 2018, 00:26

Painboy wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 22:53

Here is an article from the Economist (sorry if it's paywalled).
https://www.economist.com/united-states ... rd-to-hack

Relevant bit:
The second, more insidious, method is to complement that tactic with a more direct cyber-attack on voting records or machines. Fortunately, the spectre of hackers in Moscow doctoring actual election results appears remote. Just before leaving the White House, Barack Obama designated election systems as critical infrastructure. That decision granted election officials access to federal cyber-security experts and to an information-sharing network. The federal government has since provided billions of dollars for securing the administration of elections.

All voting machines are supposed to be “air-gapped” (not connected to the internet), making them much harder to infiltrate from afar. Attackers could try to alter voting results by loading malware onto USB sticks that get plugged into the machines, or embedding it in the code run on them (the government’s own hackers used this technique to sabotage Iran’s air-gapped nuclear centrifuges). But even if Russia did manage to sneak a virus onto some of these machines, it would need to remain hidden during routine logic and accuracy tests, conducted before the election, which ensure that the devices’ tabulated totals equal the sum of the individual votes entered on them. Rigorous reviews of software and vote tabulations have revealed no evidence of any electronic ballot-stuffing, deleting or switching in 2016.
Most states aren’t planning to use federal funds to make major election upgrades before November.

And Georgia is sticking with their highly vulnerable paperless machines, maybe I'd argue actively not securing their systems with plenty of time to go.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 19 Sep 2018, 00:30

Tovarisch, is most troubling you not trusting of government. GRU and FSB have invested great resources to study security of American elections, because are friends of American President and want to make sure his country is safe. When you not trusting him we thinking you are not wanting make America great again.

You do wanting make America great again, da?
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Painboy » 19 Sep 2018, 12:48

I hate to use the nuclear option, but you all give me no choice.

This stuff sounds like Glen Beck nonsense. Wrap some goldbug stuff around it and you'll have the full Glen Beck burrito.

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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by thoreau » 19 Sep 2018, 13:55

People are choosing not to take precautions, and the lack of precautions lines up with potential partisan advantages from meddling.

I thought that if people were acting in accordance with incentives we were supposed to treat it as something obvious, not something mysterious.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Ellie » 19 Sep 2018, 14:45

Painboy wrote:
19 Sep 2018, 12:48
I hate to use the nuclear option, but you all give me no choice.

This stuff sounds like Glen Beck nonsense. Wrap some goldbug stuff around it and you'll have the full Glen Beck burrito.
Dammit, now I'm craving a burrito. Stupid pregnancy!
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Jennifer » 19 Sep 2018, 15:51

Painboy wrote:
19 Sep 2018, 12:48
I hate to use the nuclear option, but you all give me no choice.

This stuff sounds like Glen Beck nonsense. Wrap some goldbug stuff around it and you'll have the full Glen Beck burrito.
[Scrolls over Taktix's links] Ah, yes: Politico, Bloomberg and Wired -- just like Glenn Beck, if they report anything which might possibly be construed as a problem with the status quo, especially if said problem would give an advantage to the political party currently in power.
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Re: Putin on the Writs

Post by Painboy » 19 Sep 2018, 16:06

Jennifer wrote:
19 Sep 2018, 15:51
Painboy wrote:
19 Sep 2018, 12:48
I hate to use the nuclear option, but you all give me no choice.

This stuff sounds like Glen Beck nonsense. Wrap some goldbug stuff around it and you'll have the full Glen Beck burrito.
[Scrolls over Taktix's links] Ah, yes: Politico, Bloomberg and Wired -- just like Glenn Beck, if they report anything which might possibly be construed as a problem with the status quo, especially if said problem would give an advantage to the political party currently in power.
None of those links provide any evidence that the Russians have done, or can do, anything of consequence. Most of this is just politicos grandstanding so they look like they give a fuck about us or journalists getting page views by rattling the doom bell. There was more evidence for WMDs in Iraq.

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