Market Failure!

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Jason
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Jason » 14 Jul 2017, 18:56

Jennifer wrote:
13 Jul 2017, 20:16
The Georgia berry farmer quoted in that one article said he estimates he's lost $750K worth of crop already.
That's 750K at the old wage... it could be much more at the new wage.
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Jennifer
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Jennifer » 14 Jul 2017, 19:08

Jason wrote:
14 Jul 2017, 18:56
Jennifer wrote:
13 Jul 2017, 20:16
The Georgia berry farmer quoted in that one article said he estimates he's lost $750K worth of crop already.
That's 750K at the old wage... it could be much more at the new wage.
The Georgia-farmer article ends with a quote from one of them, saying he'll go bankrupt if he can't get his crops in. But nothing in that article indicates the farmers have even considered anything other than "Complain about the lack of foreign migrant workers." (One guy said he'd have to resort to using machines, but machines are bad at picking berries and will destroy roughly 25 percent of his crop. If any of those farmers did try recruiting locally, maybe seeing if any out-of-school teenagers want a temporary summer job, this was not mentioned in the article.)

That said: I am very skeptical of the implication that various industries ranging from "regional airlines" to "dry cleaners" to "roofers" to "farmers" can only be economically viable when unemployment rates are high enough that American workers will settle for low wages and/or shitty working conditions, but once unemployment drops enough that workers have better options, those companies can't possibly be expected to attract/retain workers, and still function profitably.
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Highway
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Highway » 14 Jul 2017, 19:56

Thinking about it more, I think it's a lot of the continued feeling that "the economy isn't doing well" even though it is doing well enough. So I think there's a gigantic reluctance to raise prices, do it boldly, and say "It's because we're paying our people well enough." People might say that's what they want employers to do, but then they will shop for the absolute cheapest price and hard-line negotiate. Same thing as the complete disconnect between airline customer service and flights people actually take. So companies are, rightly or wrongly, scared to death to raise prices, because of all the "gouging your customers" and "How could you do that with everyone struggling?" opprobrium.
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Jennifer
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Jennifer » 14 Jul 2017, 20:10

Highway wrote:
14 Jul 2017, 19:56
Thinking about it more, I think it's a lot of the continued feeling that "the economy isn't doing well" even though it is doing well enough.
There may be a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem here; how much of the idea "The economy isn't doing well" comes from workers whose wages are still stagnant? (That's a rhetorical question, not one I expect you to actually answer.)

So I think there's a gigantic reluctance to raise prices, do it boldly, and say "It's because we're paying our people well enough." People might say that's what they want employers to do, but then they will shop for the absolute cheapest price and hard-line negotiate. Same thing as the complete disconnect between airline customer service and flights people actually take. So companies are, rightly or wrongly, scared to death to raise prices, because of all the "gouging your customers" and "How could you do that with everyone struggling?" opprobrium.
I don't know the specifics of how much profit Horizon Airlines is used to making, versus how much that profit will drop if it paid its pilots more or how much they'd have to raise airfares to remain profitable, but surely, raising it;s prices can't b as bad for its bottom line as canceling hundreds of flights for lack of pilots. Here's another Horizon Air article from two weeks ago:


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... ights.html
Horizon Air is facing a pilot shortage so severe that Alaska Air Group’s regional carrier says it will cut flights this summer.

Horizon Air canceled more than 318 flights because it didn’t have enough pilots, according to The Seattle Times. Without enough pilots to fly Horizon’s Q400 turboprop planes, the airline is scheduling its managers who are pilots to fly routes. The airline also is offering double-time pay for pilots who take on extra flights.

The Times reported that Horizon CEO Dave Campbell sent a memo to workers on Thursday saying the airline is cutting more flights in August and also looking at the fall and winter schedules.

“June will go down as our ‘bump in the road’ — our moment when things got too far off track, and now, we must decide how to recover,” Campbell said in the memo. “We have established a war room to daily manage potential cancellations.

Horizon has struggled for months to staff enough pilots to keep all its flights on schedule.

The airline canceled 720 flights in December 2016 because there were not enough pilots to fly all the schedules routes, according to the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, which represents the pilots. Alaska Air flew many of the flights for Horizon, according to the union, which said that Horizon struggled to recruit and retain pilots because pilots at Horizon "make substantially less money than pilots at comparable airlines.”
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Mo
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Mo » 14 Jul 2017, 20:30

Highway wrote:Thinking about it more, I think it's a lot of the continued feeling that "the economy isn't doing well" even though it is doing well enough. So I think there's a gigantic reluctance to raise prices, do it boldly, and say "It's because we're paying our people well enough." People might say that's what they want employers to do, but then they will shop for the absolute cheapest price and hard-line negotiate. Same thing as the complete disconnect between airline customer service and flights people actually take. So companies are, rightly or wrongly, scared to death to raise prices, because of all the "gouging your customers" and "How could you do that with everyone struggling?" opprobrium.
What's really funny is that prices of staples are down to post-recession lows. The bread/milk/eggs index is at the lowest price since 2007.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Eric the .5b » 16 Jul 2017, 07:44

Jennifer wrote:
14 Jul 2017, 18:03
Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Jul 2017, 04:52
I know you're not being literal, Jennifer.

Also, a rise in the price doesn't matter. What matters is how much the labor would cost. You keep going on about how the farmer needs to massively raise wages to get the labor he needs,, but then you ignore the question of whether the harvest is actually still worth bringing in when he has to pay 500 people much higher wages than he planned and budgeted for. But no, he's just being dumb and illogical because it's so obvious to random people on the internet.
This random person on the Internet does indeed think it obvious that "If you can't find people willing to work for you, you need to do something to make that job more enticing somehow."
And this random person is aware that if your costs for picking berries become high enough, it makes no sense to pick those berries.
Jennifer wrote:
14 Jul 2017, 18:03
aising the offered wage is generally the easiest way to do this. (That said: the article about Georgia farmers doesn't say if they even tried hiring locals, rather than complain about the lack of foreign migrants.)
Neither did it say they didn't. Knowing what we know about journalism on subjects like this, I bet they didn't even ask. I'm going with the assumption that someone might actually know their business, and with the logical possibility that someone who'd planned and budgeted for much cheaper labor in a field like farming, where labor costs are significant and the product is a commodity,, could very easily have serious problems if labor costs spike, as they effectively have in this case.

Meanwhile, you're going with the assumption that they're just idiots because hey, you know better, and people can all be paid more. I don't get that.
Last edited by Eric the .5b on 16 Jul 2017, 07:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Eric the .5b » 16 Jul 2017, 07:48

Mo wrote:
14 Jul 2017, 08:48
Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Jul 2017, 04:52
Also, a rise in the price doesn't matter. What matters is how much the labor would cost. You keep going on about how the farmer needs to massively raise wages to get the labor he needs,, but then you ignore the question of whether the harvest is actually still worth bringing in when he has to pay 500 people much higher wages than he planned and budgeted for. But no, he's just being dumb and illogical because it's so obvious to random people on the internet.
Gee, it's not like I addressed that concern earlier in the thread....
Me wrote:I can see that in a commodity business, like agriculture, where there's no pricing power among participants. But in something like an airline or the roofer..
You mean the industries I didn't say anything about, instead talking specifically about the farmer?

No, you didn't address that concern, not if, by that, you mean anything I said.
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JasonL
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by JasonL » 16 Jul 2017, 08:57

In my company we have raised phone rep wages 5-6 times since 2009 and we created a benefit where we offer a kind of match for their student loan payments. We also offered 5,000 people early retirement to create mobility opportunities for tenured reps. That's to say I'm directly aware of several industries where adjustments are happening. In businesses where this isn't happening my best guess is they are types of jobs where employers don't see long term benefits to significantly higher labor costs. They are sticky on raising because they they feel like the bind is temporary and they don't want to set a new floor or take on long term costs. Anyone with health insurance is getting eaten alive with those costs but seems like the types of jobs in question don't typically have insurance anyway.

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Mo
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Mo » 16 Jul 2017, 14:59

JasonL wrote:
16 Jul 2017, 08:57
In my company we have raised phone rep wages 5-6 times since 2009 and we created a benefit where we offer a kind of match for their student loan payments. We also offered 5,000 people early retirement to create mobility opportunities for tenured reps. That's to say I'm directly aware of several industries where adjustments are happening. In businesses where this isn't happening my best guess is they are types of jobs where employers don't see long term benefits to significantly higher labor costs. They are sticky on raising because they they feel like the bind is temporary and they don't want to set a new floor or take on long term costs. Anyone with health insurance is getting eaten alive with those costs but seems like the types of jobs in question don't typically have insurance anyway.
I would not judge what a small company does by what a large, old company does. Your employer has been around for over 60 years, dealing with ups and downs and shifting demand for jobs and the like. There's ton of process and institutional knowledge built in there that does not exist in a lot of small firms.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 30 Jul 2017, 17:12

So here's a four hundred dollar EZ-Bake oven for "adults:"

Check out @businessinsider's Tweet:

We deserve economic collapse.
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Mo
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Mo » 30 Jul 2017, 17:37

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
30 Jul 2017, 17:12
So here's a four hundred dollar EZ-Bake oven for "adults:"

Check out @businessinsider's Tweet:

We deserve economic collapse.
Hmm 180 day trial. I think I know what I will buy when I redo my kitchen.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Market Failure!

Post by lunchstealer » 31 Jul 2017, 02:30

Does it t squeeze bags of juice, too?
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dead_elvis
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by dead_elvis » 31 Jul 2017, 08:50

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
30 Jul 2017, 17:12
So here's a four hundred dollar EZ-Bake oven for "adults:"

We deserve economic collapse.
For $12 a meal I can order takeout, get two meals out of it instead of one, and skip buying the oven.
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Painboy
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Painboy » 31 Jul 2017, 10:12

dead_elvis wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 08:50
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
30 Jul 2017, 17:12
So here's a four hundred dollar EZ-Bake oven for "adults:"

We deserve economic collapse.
For $12 a meal I can order takeout, get two meals out of it instead of one, and skip buying the oven.
I was mildly intrigued until I saw the price of the meals.

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Mo
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Mo » 04 Aug 2017, 23:06

What. The. Fuck.

http://www.jiftip.com/
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Eric the .5b » 04 Aug 2017, 23:11

Mo wrote:
04 Aug 2017, 23:06
What. The. Fuck.

http://www.jiftip.com/
If condoms are jimmy-hats, I guess that's a jimmy-yarmulke?
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Aresen
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Aresen » 04 Aug 2017, 23:14

Mo wrote:
04 Aug 2017, 23:06
What. The. Fuck.

http://www.jiftip.com/
I think it works by the fact that it takes so much time to put on at the critical moment, that the moment passes.
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JasonL
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by JasonL » 05 Aug 2017, 08:56

The URL made me fear it was a version of Jif pb you had to stir. This makes more sense.

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dhex
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by dhex » 05 Aug 2017, 10:34

The fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

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Taktix®
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Taktix® » 05 Aug 2017, 18:59

Sweet Baby Mises, I'm getting suggested ads for the Tuttle Twins.

(no way I link that here, just Google it. With an incognito tab. On an enemy's computer. While wearing protective gloves...)
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Kolohe
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Kolohe » 07 Aug 2017, 16:00

Or more precisely, Marketing Failure Because Analogy Failure

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dead_elvis
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by dead_elvis » 08 Aug 2017, 13:28

Vending machine where I was staying the past month- 5 slots for pop tarts, but all the same flavor.
IMG_6647.JPG
IMG_6647.JPG (1.18 MiB) Viewed 403 times
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Ellie
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by Ellie » 08 Aug 2017, 13:29

And not even one of the good flavors!
I should have listened to Warren. He was right again as usual.

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dead_elvis
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by dead_elvis » 08 Aug 2017, 13:39

Ellie wrote:
08 Aug 2017, 13:29
And not even one of the good flavors!
I wasn't going to presume for anyone else, but YES that is objectively the worst flavor.

Also, is that pic showing upside down for everyone else? It isn't that way anywhere else except on this thread.
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JasonL
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Re: Market Failure!

Post by JasonL » 08 Aug 2017, 13:54

Brown sugar is the worst flavor and somehow was also the Poptart Default for my entire childhood. If there was only one flavor, it was that pos.

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