Inequality

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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 16 Jul 2019, 07:35

It’s census data from the every 10 years or or census wealth survey. We are due for another one as that’s from 2011. It’s cited in industry materials in my biz. Here’s a link referencing the survey.

https://www.thebalance.com/american-net ... an-4135839

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Mo
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Re: Inequality

Post by Mo » 16 Jul 2019, 09:16

nicole wrote:
13 Jul 2019, 17:38
I figure this is as good a place as any to link to a longish blog post about Christ Arnade’s new book, Dignity: https://theparadoxproject .org/2019/07/12/affirming-dignity/

I have a lot of issues with the front vs. back row framing itself, and my disagreements with the post go further than that. But people seem pretty compelled by this stuff.
So I read it and now I'm annoyed.
But they are also the people I know who most despise the back-row mentality. Their vision of helping the back row is to let the government give them enough money that they don’t starve and then hopefully they will shut up and let us smart people do our thing. They have very little sympathy for rural culture or values. They don’t see that culture as worthy of dignity on its own terms. There is this sense that the only real way to help them is to give them the opportunity and ability to become more like us. Their values are bad and their culture is bad and they aren’t valuable in and of themselves; they are valuable because they could become us if they just get the right education and resources.
What annoys me about this is that it imagines the back-row people as largely sitting back minding their own business until the front-row people attacked just because Trump got elected. Like how somehow the rural people didn't despise urban culture and values. Trump brought out a backlash because he was the first candidate that was aggressively hostile to a significant part of the population, whereas basically every candidate at the very least makes rhetorical claims about representing everyone. It's similar to the evangelical view of victimization as if the world did not exist pre-Obergefell and they're wondering why the same tactics they did decades before were turned upon them.
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Dangerman
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Re: Inequality

Post by Dangerman » 16 Jul 2019, 09:50

I see more of baseline class distinction, where working and supporting yourself at a small business in a small town is back row, and that's the root of my annoyance, but I could simply be projecting onto myself.

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Re: Inequality

Post by nicole » 16 Jul 2019, 10:14

Mo wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 09:16
So I read it and now I'm annoyed.
But they are also the people I know who most despise the back-row mentality. Their vision of helping the back row is to let the government give them enough money that they don’t starve and then hopefully they will shut up and let us smart people do our thing. They have very little sympathy for rural culture or values. They don’t see that culture as worthy of dignity on its own terms. There is this sense that the only real way to help them is to give them the opportunity and ability to become more like us. Their values are bad and their culture is bad and they aren’t valuable in and of themselves; they are valuable because they could become us if they just get the right education and resources.
What annoys me about this is that it imagines the back-row people as largely sitting back minding their own business until the front-row people attacked just because Trump got elected. Like how somehow the rural people didn't despise urban culture and values. Trump brought out a backlash because he was the first candidate that was aggressively hostile to a significant part of the population, whereas basically every candidate at the very least makes rhetorical claims about representing everyone. It's similar to the evangelical view of victimization as if the world did not exist pre-Obergefell and they're wondering why the same tactics they did decades before were turned upon them.
Right. This is basically what has annoyed me about the whole front-/back-row thing from when I first started seeing Arnade talk about it back in 2016. Because these people are relatively less well off/more downtrodden, there is a suggestion that they are also the losers in real-life social interactions with the "front row," even though they they dominate many social situations and institutions due to sheer numbers -- including many (most?) schools! Like, the idea that primary or secondary school is a place where smart, engaged kids have social power is fucking laughable. I'm in much closer agreement with this reply via Twitter (thread):
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thoreau
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Re: Inequality

Post by thoreau » 16 Jul 2019, 10:35


nicole wrote:Because these people are relatively less well off/more downtrodden, there is a suggestion that they are also the losers in real-life social interactions with the "front row," even though they they dominate many social situations and institutions due to sheer numbers -- including many (most?) schools! Like, the idea that primary or secondary school is a place where smart, engaged kids have social power is fucking laughable. I'm in much closer agreement with this reply via Twitter (thread):
Progressive educators are busy making college cater to the back row as well.
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Re: Inequality

Post by lunchstealer » 16 Jul 2019, 10:43

Mo wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 07:26
JasonL wrote:Just for color, median US household net worth is like $68k. Top quintile is like $630k.
That top quintile seems very high.
That's net worth, not income. I can buy that.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Ellie » 16 Jul 2019, 10:52

Probably stupid question: does "net worth" mean assets less debts? E.g. if I have $1,000 in the bank and $50,000 in student loan debt, my net worth is negative?
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Re: Inequality

Post by lunchstealer » 16 Jul 2019, 10:57

Ellie wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 10:52
Probably stupid question: does "net worth" mean assets less debts? E.g. if I have $1,000 in the bank and $50,000 in student loan debt, my net worth is negative?
This is my understanding but I just realized I'm 99% certain that comes entirely from a guess based on 'net' and 'worth' and not some formal definition about it.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Dangerman » 16 Jul 2019, 10:58

Reading Nicoles take, I agree, and I'm conflicted because I come from a front row family culture, suffered from bullying from back row types, and now live with a lot of people who seem to be put into the back row by this article, but don't actually have the values that Trumpism is pushing. I'm back row because I'm rural, not college educated, and not Orthodox Progressive, but I don't identify with the regressive parts of the culture that upset people when they look at the group that I'm closest to.

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Re: Inequality

Post by dhex » 16 Jul 2019, 11:01

Using their ahem nomenclature I was back row SES with front row values in a back row school environment and was also something of a prat which doesn't help.
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Re: Inequality

Post by nicole » 16 Jul 2019, 11:11

Ellie wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 10:52
Probably stupid question: does "net worth" mean assets less debts? E.g. if I have $1,000 in the bank and $50,000 in student loan debt, my net worth is negative?
correct
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 16 Jul 2019, 11:43

There's ... something I'm trying to articulate here and I can't quite get it - about front row/back row. I don't like the framing but there is a cultural issue in the neighborhood. It kind of has to do with who gets to sneer at whom and where. So, let's make the whole front row / back row environment black american. Whats the socially acceptable story about the back row in that situation? What do we say about the front row and their struggles with the back row? Now move that classroom to west virginia or somewhere really white. The narrative is completely different. The sneer from front to back becomes entirely understandable somehow even though in a real practical sense the governing class features of the back row are pretty similar to the first classroom. From a cultural narrative standpoint, there isn't any sense really ever in which the white back row is misunderstood nevermind being the good guy - until you get some Hillbilly Elegy type things that try here and there.

So, I think there's something to the idea that some peoples awfulness is their fault but other peoples awfulness is entirely cultural or racist and they are victims.

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Re: Inequality

Post by lunchstealer » 16 Jul 2019, 11:53

dhex wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 11:01
Using their ahem nomenclature I was back row SES with front row values in a back row school environment and was also something of a prat which doesn't help.
Yeah, my hometown was a small southern town although a bit more intellectual than most non-college towns since it had a bunch of old New England money who had vacation 'cottages' (mansions, just not quite estates - like the houses have names like Aberdeen and Kamchatka, which was owned by the Buckley family as in Wm. F.) so the back-row types had a good amount of influence but I always felt like the top of the pecking order were the second-row types. Basically from front-row families with front-row values but who walked the line of looking like they didn't care while making sure they got into all college-prep classes maybe honors/AP classes. So grain of salt, but I got bullied to hell in part because I was a bit too front row, in part because I was a cultural outsider as many/most people in town had a few generations there and folks who'd moved to town recently didn't have anyone to vouch for them, I guess. But mostly it was because I was oversensitive and overliteral and didn't navigate the line between written rules and unwritten rules all that well. I was, in many instances, a prat.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jasper » 16 Jul 2019, 12:31

JasonL wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 11:43
There's ... something I'm trying to articulate here and I can't quite get it - about front row/back row. I don't like the framing but there is a cultural issue in the neighborhood. It kind of has to do with who gets to sneer at whom and where. So, let's make the whole front row / back row environment black american. Whats the socially acceptable story about the back row in that situation? What do we say about the front row and their struggles with the back row? Now move that classroom to west virginia or somewhere really white. The narrative is completely different. The sneer from front to back becomes entirely understandable somehow even though in a real practical sense the governing class features of the back row are pretty similar to the first classroom. From a cultural narrative standpoint, there isn't any sense really ever in which the white back row is misunderstood nevermind being the good guy - until you get some Hillbilly Elegy type things that try here and there.

So, I think there's something to the idea that some peoples awfulness is their fault but other peoples awfulness is entirely cultural or racist and they are victims.
Yeah, I was trying to think of how I wanted to comment on this, and this is pretty close.

I also find it interesting that right here on the Gryll, there's folks that, while admitting the framing is pretty clunky, are happy to point the finger at the other row to blame for the current political miasma we're enduring.

While the back row has the numbers, it seems to me the front row has had the cultural bully pulpit for decades.

As a kid, there were far more jokes and caricatures and disdain for rednecks, yokels, hillbillies, tradesmen, and other rural working poor types than there were for teachers, professors, and scientists. When I entered trade school, there was still the stigma that learning a trade was for the less intelligent and social outcasts. It might be even more prevalent now since the greater american culture seems to assume if you don't go to college you are probably dumb (if white) or should be pitied (if poc), to maybe build upon Jason's Moving Classroom.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Dangerman » 16 Jul 2019, 12:37

But mostly it was because I was oversensitive and overliteral and didn't navigate the line between written rules and unwritten rules all that well. I was, in many instances, a prat.
Yeah this is a big plus one.
As a kid, there were far more jokes and caricatures and disdain for rednecks, yokels, hillbillies, tradesmen, and other rural working poor types than there were for teachers, professors, and scientists. When I entered trade school, there was still the stigma that learning a trade was for the less intelligent and social outcasts. It might be even more prevalent now since the greater american culture seems to assume if you don't go to college you are probably dumb (if white) or should be pitied (if poc)
Also this, because I grew up with a lot of people whose families moved to a parochial life but kinda look down on the people who didn't have the choice, but live there because of circumstances.

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Re: Inequality

Post by Warren » 16 Jul 2019, 12:39

Jasper wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 12:31
JasonL wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 11:43
There's ... something I'm trying to articulate here and I can't quite get it - about front row/back row. I don't like the framing but there is a cultural issue in the neighborhood. It kind of has to do with who gets to sneer at whom and where. So, let's make the whole front row / back row environment black american. Whats the socially acceptable story about the back row in that situation? What do we say about the front row and their struggles with the back row? Now move that classroom to west virginia or somewhere really white. The narrative is completely different. The sneer from front to back becomes entirely understandable somehow even though in a real practical sense the governing class features of the back row are pretty similar to the first classroom. From a cultural narrative standpoint, there isn't any sense really ever in which the white back row is misunderstood nevermind being the good guy - until you get some Hillbilly Elegy type things that try here and there.

So, I think there's something to the idea that some peoples awfulness is their fault but other peoples awfulness is entirely cultural or racist and they are victims.
Yeah, I was trying to think of how I wanted to comment on this, and this is pretty close.

I also find it interesting that right here on the Gryll, there's folks that, while admitting the framing is pretty clunky, are happy to point the finger at the other row to blame for the current political miasma we're enduring.

While the back row has the numbers, it seems to me the front row has had the cultural bully pulpit for decades.

As a kid, there were far more jokes and caricatures and disdain for rednecks, yokels, hillbillies, tradesmen, and other rural working poor types than there were for teachers, professors, and scientists. When I entered trade school, there was still the stigma that learning a trade was for the less intelligent and social outcasts. It might be even more prevalent now since the greater american culture seems to assume if you don't go to college you are probably dumb (if white) or should be pitied (if poc), to maybe build upon Jason's Moving Classroom.
I also don't like the framing or finger pointing. Awfulness towards the other is ubiquitous.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Shem » 16 Jul 2019, 12:46

JasonL wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 11:43
So, let's make the whole front row / back row environment black american. Whats the socially acceptable story about the back row in that situation? What do we say about the front row and their struggles with the back row?
The narrative is "they have troubles because their households don't have fathers, and they care more about slinging rock and being rappers than getting an education and jobs. If they'd just stop committing crimes, the cops would stop bothering them. And when some of them do try to rise above, they get attacked for 'acting white.'" It's pretty much the National Review line any time Black America comes up.
From a cultural narrative standpoint, there isn't any sense really ever in which the white back row is misunderstood nevermind being the good guy - until you get some Hillbilly Elegy type things that try here and there.
Sometimes I wonder if you're actually consuming the media you're commenting on. Turn on Chris Matthews and his endless handwringing about the beliefs, opinions, and needs of "Pennsylvania 'what about my blue collar?' man," and then tell me there's no sense among the media and larger society in which the whole Trump affair is about misunderstanding.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Aresen » 16 Jul 2019, 12:49

After reading the above, the whole thing seems way over-simplified. In any school with more than 500 students I have ever seen, there are numerous cliques and factions:
The Grinds - the kids who study hard and are serious about school, but at least socially functional.
The Nerds/dweebs - social outcasts interested in strange stuff. Not necessarily kids who get good grades.
The Jocks - school team members
The Cool Kids - the school elite who set the social rules and generally make life miserable for the nerds/dweebs.
The Punks - wannabee tough guys and their 'chicks.' Generally follow the Cool Kids' lead (even though the two groups despise each other), but more physical.
The Normals - not really a faction, but just the main group that didn't stand out in any way or do anything in particular.

The factions were not set in stone and there was some movement around the edges, especially due to the turnover as kids graduated and new kids entered the school.

Money was a factor, especially among the Cool Kids, but didn't absolutely determine which group you were in. Also, in really large schools, the Cool Kids, Punks, and Jocks could have internal divisions, generally mutually antagonistic.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Warren » 16 Jul 2019, 12:56

Shem wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 12:46
JasonL wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 11:43
So, let's make the whole front row / back row environment black american. Whats the socially acceptable story about the back row in that situation? What do we say about the front row and their struggles with the back row?
The narrative is "they have troubles because their households don't have fathers, and they care more about slinging rock and being rappers than getting an education and jobs. If they'd just stop committing crimes, the cops would stop bothering them. And when some of them do try to rise above, they get attacked for 'acting white.'" It's pretty much the National Review line any time Black America comes up.
That's pretty much the opposite of "socially acceptable"
From a cultural narrative standpoint, there isn't any sense really ever in which the white back row is misunderstood nevermind being the good guy - until you get some Hillbilly Elegy type things that try here and there.
Sometimes I wonder if you're actually consuming the media you're commenting on. Turn on Chris Matthews and his endless handwringing about the beliefs, opinions, and needs of "Pennsylvania 'what about my blue collar?' man," and then tell me there's no sense among the media and larger society in which the whole Trump affair is about misunderstanding.
Crhis Matthews? Your making his point for him.
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 16 Jul 2019, 12:59

Shem wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 12:46
JasonL wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 11:43
So, let's make the whole front row / back row environment black american. Whats the socially acceptable story about the back row in that situation? What do we say about the front row and their struggles with the back row?
The narrative is "they have troubles because their households don't have fathers, and they care more about slinging rock and being rappers than getting an education and jobs. If they'd just stop committing crimes, the cops would stop bothering them. And when some of them do try to rise above, they get attacked for 'acting white.'" It's pretty much the National Review line any time Black America comes up.
From a cultural narrative standpoint, there isn't any sense really ever in which the white back row is misunderstood nevermind being the good guy - until you get some Hillbilly Elegy type things that try here and there.
Sometimes I wonder if you're actually consuming the media you're commenting on. Turn on Chris Matthews and his endless handwringing about the beliefs, opinions, and needs of "Pennsylvania 'what about my blue collar?' man," and then tell me there's no sense among the media and larger society in which the whole Trump affair is about misunderstanding.
To clarify, of course there is now. I suspect you and perhaps Mo would tell me it's almost exactly equally privileged narrative and I would disagree with that.

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Re: Inequality

Post by Shem » 16 Jul 2019, 13:03

lunchstealer wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 11:53
But mostly it was because I was oversensitive and overliteral and didn't navigate the line between written rules and unwritten rules all that well. I was, in many instances, a prat.
I think this gets at one of the underappreciated aspects of the bullying issue in school; the role that social skills play in determining who becomes a target. We tend to have this idea that smart kids are focusing on what's important (that is, doing well in school), and the other kids are focusing on things that don't matter. But, the other kids are focused on doing things that build social skills, which helps them navigate situations that might have otherwise given them difficulties. I had issues with getting pushed around in school, but in retrospect, there was a difference between the genuine bullies, and the people who were fed up with their unspoken hints being ignored, and who escalated their actions as a result of frustration. I know that once I caught up a bit in terms of social awareness, most of them backed off, and some even pushed back on my behalf for the genuine bullies. It makes me wonder if we might do better addressing the issue by encouraging social interactions more than discouraging bullying, as such.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Shem » 16 Jul 2019, 13:07

Warren wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 12:56
Crhis Matthews? Your making his point for him.
How, by pointing out that the guy who has the 7PM EDT slot on the liberal cable news channel seems his time making exactly the argument he's talking about?
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Re: Inequality

Post by Warren » 16 Jul 2019, 13:10

Shem wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 13:07
Warren wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 12:56
Crhis Matthews? Your making his point for him.
How, by pointing out that the guy who has the 7PM EDT slot on the liberal cable news channel seems his time making exactly the argument he's talking about?
I'm actually chagrined to lean Hardball is still running.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Shem » 16 Jul 2019, 13:15

JasonL wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 12:59
To clarify, of course there is now. I suspect you and perhaps Mo would tell me it's almost exactly equally privileged narrative and I would disagree with that.
No, I'd say the White working class narrative is more privileged. There's one major political party wholly dedicated to the White working class narrative, and a giant chunk of the other one who supports it (and always has; you might not have noticed it before, but it's always been there, embodied by the Bill Clinton wing of the party). Step too close to attacking it, and all of them turns out to push back, as Obama learned when he made his "clinging" comments. Meanwhile, who pushes back on the Black working class narrative among the Republican Party?
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Re: Inequality

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 16 Jul 2019, 13:27

Mo wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 07:26
JasonL wrote:Just for color, median US household net worth is like $68k. Top quintile is like $630k.
That top quintile seems very high.
It seems high that the top fifth of U.S. households have a net worth of $630k? Including home equity, retirement savings of whatever sort, etc?

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