Inequality

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Ellie
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Re: Inequality

Post by Ellie » 13 Aug 2018, 17:16

So many of my friends/acquaintances "liked" the post (and one even added "Capitalism is killing us all!") that I had to ask, as politely as possible, exactly what they thought a natural workweek would look like. Pretty much just so I can roll my eyes some more, but who knows, maybe somebody will have a moment of realization how fucking stupid the sentiment is.
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Jennifer
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 13 Aug 2018, 17:19

Ellie wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 17:16
So many of my friends/acquaintances "liked" the post (and one even added "Capitalism is killing us all!") that I had to ask, as politely as possible, exactly what they thought a natural workweek would look like. Pretty much just so I can roll my eyes some more, but who knows, maybe somebody will have a moment of realization how fucking stupid the sentiment is.
When you get hungry, you pluck a natural and delicious piece of fruit off a nearby tree, and if you get bad vision, you pluck a pair of eyeglasses off a wild eyeglass-bush. All is in harmony.
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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 13 Aug 2018, 17:20

Ellie wrote:So many of my friends/acquaintances "liked" the post (and one even added "Capitalism is killing us all!") that I had to ask, as politely as possible, exactly what they thought a natural workweek would look like. Pretty much just so I can roll my eyes some more, but who knows, maybe somebody will have a moment of realization how fucking stupid the sentiment is.
From me the workweek I feel like, to me all the hours of others lives required to provide a non stressful lifestyle with special emphasis on the inherent stresses of inequality.

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Ellie
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Re: Inequality

Post by Ellie » 13 Aug 2018, 17:22

Quoth my friend (the initial poster of the topic), "Research done by socialist societies such as Denmark have found a 6 hour work day is just as productive if not more than an 8 hour one."
"NB stands for nota bene do not @ me" - nicole

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Painboy
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Re: Inequality

Post by Painboy » 13 Aug 2018, 17:27

Ellie wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 17:22
Quoth my friend (the initial poster of the topic), "Research done by socialist societies such as Denmark have found a 6 hour work day is just as productive if not more than an 8 hour one."
I have a funny feeling that they still would want to be paid as if they worked 8 hours of work.

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Jennifer
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 13 Aug 2018, 17:32

[Headdesk] Ellie's friend sounds like she makes the same mistake as my literal-socialist Facebook friend -- the one who recently shared that idiotic pro-Communist meme blaming "capitalism" for such things as political repression and environmental damage: there are indeed certain things about Current American Status Quo worth criticizing... but those things are not problems inherent to "capitalism" as opposed to any other economic model.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Ellie
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Re: Inequality

Post by Ellie » 13 Aug 2018, 17:41

I really want to ask "if a 30-hour work week is more productive, and capitalism is an amoral machine that cares only about maximizing productivity and profit, why aren't we all working 30-hour weeks already?"
"NB stands for nota bene do not @ me" - nicole

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Jadagul
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jadagul » 13 Aug 2018, 17:44

The answer people (who have given this issue serious thought, which is a minority) will give you is that capitalists are surprisingly aware of their interest as a class, and are completely and surprisingly willing to pass up profit in the short term to preserve the class interests of capitalists against labor.

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Mo
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Inequality

Post by Mo » 13 Aug 2018, 17:48

35 hour work weeks maximize productivity. 50 hour work weeks maximize output.

Also, per Jadagul. Being discriminatory is not the most profitable path, but social pressures and path dependence is a thing. Like if you legalized smoking in restaurants, maybe 5-10% allow it. If it was never against the law, easily >50% would still allow smoking.
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Jadagul
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jadagul » 13 Aug 2018, 19:06

So, I really don't believe the "class consciousness" angle, although I find Mo's suggestion of social pressure and "no one went broke buying IBM" somewhat compelling.

I also wonder how significant the government definition of full-time employment being 40 hours a week is in anchoring work weeks.

But there are also lots of totally unrelated to government overhead expenses. Like, let's even assume people are being paid hourly. You'd think that then you'd want to maximize productivity per hour. Except--there's a significant overhead for each person you hire, especially if you're giving them benefits. So even if 30 hour/week workers are more productive per hour, it might be substantially more expensive to hire four 30 hour workers than to hire three 40 hour workers.

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JasonL
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Inequality

Post by JasonL » 13 Aug 2018, 20:43

Psst 40 hour weeks arent really 40 hour weeks for many kinds of work right now. It is a norm outside of phone services that nobody really gives a shit if you cone in :30 after or leave :30 before. Nobody cares if your lunch is long. Nobody cares if you grab the kids for some kid thing. People only care if you are serially taking advantage of unwritten rules all the time or your surveys/productivity suffer. You have to earn that treatment because lots of people are shitty

It is a thing that piece wise work or work requiring availability in high demand don’t have this feature.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Inequality

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Aug 2018, 20:45

Weird, I thought the saintly socialist union agitators of the early twentieth century were responsible for the forty-hour work week. Doesn't that prove it's good?
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Re: Inequality

Post by Warren » 13 Aug 2018, 20:47

Ellie wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 11:55
Shared appreciatively by a friend of mine. Yikes.

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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:cry:
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Warren
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Re: Inequality

Post by Warren » 13 Aug 2018, 20:53

JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 20:43
Psst 40 hour weeks arent really 40 hour weeks for many kinds of work right now. It is a norm outside of phone services that nobody really gives a shit if you cone in :30 after or leave :30 before. Nobody cares if your lunch is long. Nobody cares if you grab the kids for some kid thing. People only care if you are serially taking advantage of unwritten rules all the time or your surveys/productivity suffer. You have to earn that treatment because lots of people are shitty

It is a thing that piece wise work or work requiring availability in high demand don’t have this feature.
What color is the sky in your world?
For every employer I've ever worked for (over a dozen), only the hourly were permitted to work as few as 40 hrs/wk. Even they were expected to take the overtime when offered.
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Aresen
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Re: Inequality

Post by Aresen » 13 Aug 2018, 21:09

Ellie wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 11:55
Shared appreciatively by a friend of mine. Yikes.

Code: Select all

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/38996274_2115021065407034_6429200153848053760_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&oh=c8d7c6a68c199536438343a257c365f4&oe=5BC89D97
Image
Has anyone ever said the words "subsistence farmer" to this guy?
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Aresen
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Re: Inequality

Post by Aresen » 13 Aug 2018, 21:26

Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 20:45
Weird, I thought the saintly socialist union agitators of the early twentieth century were responsible for the forty-hour work week. Doesn't that prove it's good?
This. You have to wonder what history the guy read to come to the conclusion that a work-week of 40 hours/week was 'unnatural'. For most of history, the peasants (i.e. 99% of humanity for most of history) worked sunrise to sunset most days of the year.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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Jadagul
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jadagul » 14 Aug 2018, 07:18

Aresen wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 21:26
Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 20:45
Weird, I thought the saintly socialist union agitators of the early twentieth century were responsible for the forty-hour work week. Doesn't that prove it's good?
This. You have to wonder what history the guy read to come to the conclusion that a work-week of 40 hours/week was 'unnatural'. For most of history, the peasants (i.e. 99% of humanity for most of history) worked sunrise to sunset most days of the year.
Well, a lot of hunter-gatherer societies actually work much less than that. There's a pretty good argument that the move to agriculture involved a serious drop in living standards---agriculture dramatically boosts population density, but doesn't improve individual living standards.

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Ellie
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Re: Inequality

Post by Ellie » 14 Aug 2018, 07:52

Aresen wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 21:26
Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 20:45
Weird, I thought the saintly socialist union agitators of the early twentieth century were responsible for the forty-hour work week. Doesn't that prove it's good?
This. You have to wonder what history the guy read to come to the conclusion that a work-week of 40 hours/week was 'unnatural'. For most of history, the peasants (i.e. 99% of humanity for most of history) worked sunrise to sunset most days of the year.
According to another commenter, "some historians believe that 13th and 14th century peasants (who we usually think of as being overworked) might have only worked 120 - 180 days a year."

To which I kind of want to say, "Then why don't you go buy a fucking farm and live like a peasant?" But I won't. (I didn't sleep much last night and am in the mood for imaginary internet arguments in my head :lol: )
"NB stands for nota bene do not @ me" - nicole

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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 14 Aug 2018, 08:43

Warren wrote:
JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 20:43
Psst 40 hour weeks arent really 40 hour weeks for many kinds of work right now. It is a norm outside of phone services that nobody really gives a shit if you cone in :30 after or leave :30 before. Nobody cares if your lunch is long. Nobody cares if you grab the kids for some kid thing. People only care if you are serially taking advantage of unwritten rules all the time or your surveys/productivity suffer. You have to earn that treatment because lots of people are shitty

It is a thing that piece wise work or work requiring availability in high demand don’t have this feature.
What color is the sky in your world?
For every employer I've ever worked for (over a dozen), only the hourly were permitted to work as few as 40 hrs/wk. Even they were expected to take the overtime when offered.
The salaried are expected to be flexible to meet demand, but in all of the client relationships I’ve worked with over the years there have only been 1-2 with max work hours obsessions all year. Like Goldman is famously shitty this way. Law is like that. Tech is definitely not. My two very large energy relationships weren’t. The big telcos vary, but really the sort of vibe you are describing is closest to Asian life = work vibes. Toyota and Samsung for sure. The latter is a high pay 70 hours expected vibe.

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Jadagul
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jadagul » 14 Aug 2018, 08:51

Ellie wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 07:52
Aresen wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 21:26
Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 20:45
Weird, I thought the saintly socialist union agitators of the early twentieth century were responsible for the forty-hour work week. Doesn't that prove it's good?
This. You have to wonder what history the guy read to come to the conclusion that a work-week of 40 hours/week was 'unnatural'. For most of history, the peasants (i.e. 99% of humanity for most of history) worked sunrise to sunset most days of the year.
According to another commenter, "some historians believe that 13th and 14th century peasants (who we usually think of as being overworked) might have only worked 120 - 180 days a year."

To which I kind of want to say, "Then why don't you go buy a fucking farm and live like a peasant?" But I won't. (I didn't sleep much last night and am in the mood for imaginary internet arguments in my head :lol: )
Gladwell claims that in Outliers. I don't trust Gladwell, particularly, but I'm pretty sure I know where the commenter got those numbers.

(Plausibly 13th century peasants only worked 180 days a year, and also had lives that sucked).

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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 14 Aug 2018, 08:53

They had no light.

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Aresen
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Re: Inequality

Post by Aresen » 14 Aug 2018, 09:08

Jadagul wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 08:51
Ellie wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 07:52
Aresen wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 21:26
Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 20:45
Weird, I thought the saintly socialist union agitators of the early twentieth century were responsible for the forty-hour work week. Doesn't that prove it's good?
This. You have to wonder what history the guy read to come to the conclusion that a work-week of 40 hours/week was 'unnatural'. For most of history, the peasants (i.e. 99% of humanity for most of history) worked sunrise to sunset most days of the year.
According to another commenter, "some historians believe that 13th and 14th century peasants (who we usually think of as being overworked) might have only worked 120 - 180 days a year."

To which I kind of want to say, "Then why don't you go buy a fucking farm and live like a peasant?" But I won't. (I didn't sleep much last night and am in the mood for imaginary internet arguments in my head :lol: )
Gladwell claims that in Outliers. I don't trust Gladwell, particularly, but I'm pretty sure I know where the commenter got those numbers.

(Plausibly 13th century peasants only worked 180 days a year, and also had lives that sucked).
I know that the had many "Holy" days where they did not work, but those days they did work were effing long. .Net, they worked more hours and the work was back-breaking. Try swinging a scythe for a few hours over plowing a field with a wooden plow. And their diet sucked big time. 'Humble pie does not appeal to me.
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Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

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Andrew
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Re: Inequality

Post by Andrew » 14 Aug 2018, 09:14

The holy days only meant no work for their lord, if I remember correctly. Those days were instead spent working to maintain crops for themselves.
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Aresen
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Re: Inequality

Post by Aresen » 14 Aug 2018, 09:15

As for the 'short days of hunter gatherers, that does apply to th actual food collection, but they had to move around a lot, with many days spent just going from place to place on foot.

Lifting in temporary shelters wasn't great, either.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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Jadagul
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jadagul » 14 Aug 2018, 09:22

Aresen wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 09:15
As for the 'short days of hunter gatherers, that does apply to th actual food collection, but they had to move around a lot, with many days spent just going from place to place on foot.

Lifting in temporary shelters wasn't great, either.
This depends on the group and the local conditions. My understanding is that the academic consensus is that the move to agriculture was a step down in comfort and in health for most societies. (It won out because it lead to much higher population _density_, and the society with ten times as many half as healthy people tended to win wars).

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