Inequality

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 8967
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Inequality

Post by nicole » 24 Apr 2018, 15:46

"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22509
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Inequality

Post by JasonL » 24 Apr 2018, 15:47

Why is it so hard to hand out of infinite jobs that require no skills, are completely insensitive to any shit decisions made by employees, and pay $15 plus benefits regardless of value of output or substitution methods of production?

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22623
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 24 Apr 2018, 15:48

nicole wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 15:38
Jennifer wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 15:09
Kinda of ironic (in the non-ironic Alanis Morrissette sense of the word) that I should see the "job guarantee" the same day I read a report that almost 1 out of 4 jobs don't pay enough to get the jobholder out of poverty. I expect right-wing types to continue promoting the myth "Laziness and/or unemployment is the ONLY reason a modern American could be poor," but left-of-center types are, in theory, supposed to know better.
Well, to be fair, they want the jobs to pay $15/hr plus benefits.
I know. But -- going back to a topic that's been discussed here before -- I agree it is unreasonable to expect every job to pay enough to live on, while at the same time most job growth is in poverty-wage fields. Which is why I'd just as soon scrap the entire welfare system as we know it, fire the bureaucracy that sustains it, and just do the guaranteed minimum income thing.

If the Atlanta suburb (Stonecrest, IIRC) actually does succeed in enticing Amazon to come here and create a shitload of low-wage no-bennies jobs, the state's going to spend an additional fortune on welfare benefits for the employees anyway. I'd just as soon see every large company with shit wages benefit by having the taxpayers keep its workers alive, in lieu of our current system wherein this is considered a special crony-capitalist privilege.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22509
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 24 Apr 2018, 15:52

Jfc

User avatar
Jadagul
Posts: 6750
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:51

Re: Inequality

Post by Jadagul » 24 Apr 2018, 15:52

The current proposal is silly enough that Yglesias is just sitting on Twitter making wonky fun of it.

Apparently the study projected that under a program with a guarantee of a $15/hour job, only 160k people would leave their current full-time jobs to take the new one. Yglesias pointed out that there are entire states where the median wage is less than $15/hour, so that number seems...low.

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22509
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Inequality

Post by JasonL » 24 Apr 2018, 15:55

Never mind the part that, um, there’s an output side you are assigning value to. You know, the part where you are getting paid to do a thing with value? Jfc

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22623
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 24 Apr 2018, 15:56

Jadagul wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 15:52
The current proposal is silly enough that Yglesias is just sitting on Twitter making wonky fun of it.

Apparently the study projected that under a program with a guarantee of a $15/hour job, only 160k people would leave their current full-time jobs to take the new one. Yglesias pointed out that there are entire states where the median wage is less than $15/hour, so that number seems...low.
I haven't seen Yglesias' stuff, but if it's Booker's specific plan he's talking about, that low number might be accurate because, according to the news article I have open in another browser window, that "jobs guarantee" only applies to certain parts of the country -- "up to 15 high-unemployment communities and regions."
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 8967
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Inequality

Post by nicole » 24 Apr 2018, 15:58

Jennifer wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 15:48
nicole wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 15:38
Jennifer wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 15:09
Kinda of ironic (in the non-ironic Alanis Morrissette sense of the word) that I should see the "job guarantee" the same day I read a report that almost 1 out of 4 jobs don't pay enough to get the jobholder out of poverty. I expect right-wing types to continue promoting the myth "Laziness and/or unemployment is the ONLY reason a modern American could be poor," but left-of-center types are, in theory, supposed to know better.
Well, to be fair, they want the jobs to pay $15/hr plus benefits.
I know. But -- going back to a topic that's been discussed here before -- I agree it is unreasonable to expect every job to pay enough to live on, while at the same time most job growth is in poverty-wage fields. Which is why I'd just as soon scrap the entire welfare system as we know it, fire the bureaucracy that sustains it, and just do the guaranteed minimum income thing.

If the Atlanta suburb (Stonecrest, IIRC) actually does succeed in enticing Amazon to come here and create a shitload of low-wage no-bennies jobs, the state's going to spend an additional fortune on welfare benefits for the employees anyway. I'd just as soon see every large company with shit wages benefit by having the taxpayers keep its workers alive, in lieu of our current system wherein this is considered a special crony-capitalist privilege.
The average salary at AMZN HQ2 is projected to be $100k.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

User avatar
Jadagul
Posts: 6750
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:51

Re: Inequality

Post by Jadagul » 24 Apr 2018, 16:01

I think this is a different study he's reading. Apparently the authors are modeling an assumption that 25% of sub-$15/hr jobs disappear and the others raise their wage to $15 to match the jobs guarantee. They expect the federal jobs to hire roughly 5 million currently unemployed and 5 million current part-timers, and at most 160k current full-timers.

Those number seem improbable to me.

User avatar
Kolohe
Posts: 13416
Joined: 06 May 2010, 10:51

Re: Inequality

Post by Kolohe » 24 Apr 2018, 16:05

You know, what doesn't even get me is the stuff that makes Jason go all Scanners-y. It's that nobody really thinks about location, i.e. where we might actually need public goods isn't necessarily where the people are. At the CCC recognized you had to set up work camps. (and then Hilter and Hirohito kicked off the best Job Guarantee program in American history)
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

User avatar
Ellie
Posts: 11393
Joined: 21 Apr 2010, 18:34

Re: Inequality

Post by Ellie » 24 Apr 2018, 16:05

Jennifer wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 15:48
If the Atlanta suburb (Stonecrest, IIRC) actually does succeed in enticing Amazon to come here and create a shitload of low-wage no-bennies jobs, the state's going to spend an additional fortune on welfare benefits for the employees anyway.
Unless a lot of people are going to move into Georgia in order to work at Amazon, the state won't spend an "additional" anything, right? Because the people who take those newly created jobs are presumably going to be coming out of unemployment where they get even more welfare from the state. It's not like anyone is saying "I make $30/hr and have health insurance now, but I'd rather work for minimum wage with no benefits and let SNAP and Section 8 cover my ass."
"NB stands for nota bene do not @ me" - nicole

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22623
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 24 Apr 2018, 16:07

Ellie wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 16:05
Jennifer wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 15:48
If the Atlanta suburb (Stonecrest, IIRC) actually does succeed in enticing Amazon to come here and create a shitload of low-wage no-bennies jobs, the state's going to spend an additional fortune on welfare benefits for the employees anyway.
Unless a lot of people are going to move into Georgia in order to work at Amazon, the state won't spend an "additional" anything, right?
They're going to spend a shitload to get Amazon to settle there in the first place.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Ellie
Posts: 11393
Joined: 21 Apr 2010, 18:34

Re: Inequality

Post by Ellie » 24 Apr 2018, 16:08

Ah, I see; I was misreading what they were in "addition" to. :)
"NB stands for nota bene do not @ me" - nicole

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22509
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 24 Apr 2018, 16:10

The haha auto stimulus you don’t have to worry about thing is hilarious too. Uh, you have to fund it when all the new people hit your rolls guys. Doesn’t matter what you call the program.

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22623
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 24 Apr 2018, 16:26

Kolohe wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 16:05
You know, what doesn't even get me is the stuff that makes Jason go all Scanners-y. It's that nobody really thinks about location, i.e. where we might actually need public goods isn't necessarily where the people are. At the CCC recognized you had to set up work camps. (and then Hilter and Hirohito kicked off the best Job Guarantee program in American history)
Plus -- correct me if I am wrong, here -- the CCC was never intended as any sort of lifelong "guaranteed" job; it was more "Well, there are some infrastructure upgrades and stuff we need anyway, if we are to be a modern 20th-century nation, so if we hire unemployed people to do this, we can kill two birds with one stone. Hopefully, by the time these jobs are done, the economy will have improved enough that these workers can find employment from someone other than the feds."

Personally, I can definitely see arguments for some sort of 21st century CCC -- say, a "rural broadband internet" program similar to the rural electrification program of the last century -- but temporary jobs to build infrastructure upgrades are entirely different from saying "The federal government should be the employer of last resort, now and forever."
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Jadagul
Posts: 6750
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:51

Re: Inequality

Post by Jadagul » 24 Apr 2018, 17:58

Almost certainly, the best version of Keynesianism is the one that says "The middle of a recession/depression, when governmental borrowing is cheap and a ton of people are unemployed, is the best time to hire people to do projects that we need to do at some point anyway."

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 24392
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Inequality

Post by Warren » 24 Apr 2018, 18:30

You know what? Fuckit. Bring it on. Single Payer, GMI, $25/hr min wage, every other stupid idea to get around D-mand Kurv. The sooner the better.
I for one can't wait for the day the black market overtakes the white market and everyone is working under the table and trading in Crypto.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 7157
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Inequality

Post by Shem » 24 Apr 2018, 18:32

Ellie wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 16:05
Because the people who take those newly created jobs are presumably going to be coming out of unemployment where they get even more welfare from the state.
That's not how unemployment works. It's paid from a trust that can only be used either to pay unemployment, or to maintain certain parts of the unemployment system. If it doesn't pay out, the money doesn't become available for other projects. And unemployment is usually too much income to qualify you for SNAP or other welfare benefits, unless you have a metric fuckton of dependents. The lion's share of benefits of a new employer come from increased tax income, not from decreased expenditures. It's why offering huge tax breaks to bring in new industry is a sucker bet, unless you're a politician who wants to get votes on a "Senator Snakeoil Means Jobs!" platform.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22623
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 24 Apr 2018, 18:35

Shem wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 18:32
It's why offering huge tax breaks to bring in new industry is a sucker bet, unless you're a politician who wants to get votes on a "Senator Snakeoil Means Jobs!" platform.
And the Atlanta suburb hoping to woo Amazon is doing even worse than that -- they're offering to give Amazon its very own city. Literally -- carve a big chunk o'land off an existing municipality and make a brand-new one solely for Amazon. Some aspects of that proposal sound almost like a parody of crony capitalism, as written by the propaganda division of the old Soviet Union.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22509
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 24 Apr 2018, 18:36

I will run on the haha fuckit nobody ever has to lift a finger again total destruction ticket with Warren.

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 7157
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Inequality

Post by Shem » 24 Apr 2018, 18:47

Jennifer wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 18:35
Shem wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 18:32
It's why offering huge tax breaks to bring in new industry is a sucker bet, unless you're a politician who wants to get votes on a "Senator Snakeoil Means Jobs!" platform.
And the Atlanta suburb hoping to woo Amazon is doing even worse than that -- they're offering to give Amazon its very own city. Literally -- carve a big chunk o'land off an existing municipality and make a brand-new one solely for Amazon. Some aspects of that proposal sound almost like a parody of crony capitalism, as written by the propaganda division of the old Soviet Union.
It's not without precedent. Disney got the state of Florida to essentially declare their chunk of Central Florida its own sovereign State, free of all local regulations and capable of issuing their own bonds. Though, I really don't think that's what Amazon is after here. They could get that closer to home if it were. My suspicion runs to DC, because I think A) Bezos has political aspirations and B) the Trump stuff has driven home that they need to be a lot more proactive about courting political ties. Plus Bezos seems to like it there. Though I still think Toronto would be smartest from a global business perspective.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22623
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 24 Apr 2018, 18:49

Shem wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 18:47
Jennifer wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 18:35
Shem wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 18:32
It's why offering huge tax breaks to bring in new industry is a sucker bet, unless you're a politician who wants to get votes on a "Senator Snakeoil Means Jobs!" platform.
And the Atlanta suburb hoping to woo Amazon is doing even worse than that -- they're offering to give Amazon its very own city. Literally -- carve a big chunk o'land off an existing municipality and make a brand-new one solely for Amazon. Some aspects of that proposal sound almost like a parody of crony capitalism, as written by the propaganda division of the old Soviet Union.
It's not without precedent. Disney got the state of Florida to essentially declare their chunk of Central Florida its own sovereign State, free of all local regulations and capable of issuing their own bonds.
I know. Apparently Stonecrest does not, though.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 2856
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 07:56
Location: Newyorkachusetts

Re: Inequality

Post by Jasper » 25 Apr 2018, 12:35

JasonL wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 15:38
I’d not heard new calls for job guarantee. It’s a thing stupid people bring up every 15 years or so though.
Bernie, bro.
"i'd like to move toward not combusting except on special occasions like arbor day." - dhex

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 7157
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Inequality

Post by Shem » 25 Apr 2018, 13:38

Jasper wrote:
25 Apr 2018, 12:35
JasonL wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 15:38
I’d not heard new calls for job guarantee. It’s a thing stupid people bring up every 15 years or so though.
Bernie, bro.
Yeah, be ready. It's going to be huge in 2020.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
lunchstealer
Posts: 15967
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:25
Location: The Local Fluff in the Local Bubble

Re: Inequality

Post by lunchstealer » 25 Apr 2018, 13:48

Shem wrote:
25 Apr 2018, 13:38
Jasper wrote:
25 Apr 2018, 12:35
JasonL wrote:
24 Apr 2018, 15:38
I’d not heard new calls for job guarantee. It’s a thing stupid people bring up every 15 years or so though.
Bernie, bro.
Yeah, be ready. It's going to be huge in 2020.
Yeah, 2020 is going to suck. My schadenfreude at any defeat Trump might face is going to be mitigated by the sheer stupidity of what the Bernistas will be up to in my facebook feed. Although the worst Bernista in my feed finally blocked me after I told him he was a little hypocritical to go all NRA = TERRISTS! when he'd been talking about how awesome political violence was when it came to the alt-right.
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"We can't confirm rumors that Lynndie England is in the running to be Gina Haspel's personal aide." - DAR

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests